phoenix-canariensis in london

[Dave Brown]

one of the things i picked up from Martyn Grahm work, is to get the hardy hardiness of young small ones is to divide the hardiness limits of the mature ones by three.

so Trachycarpus fortune is -18C when mature, -6C when young young

Phoenix canariensis_CIDP lats say -8C when mature, -2.66C when young.

That would sound to be similar to what I was thinking on maturity, but also establishment time plays a big factor.

I would dispute -18C for Trachycarpus fortunei and probably say -15C reliably much below that you are talking defloliation and no-one really wants to see that. You can halve the mature rating for newly planted palms in their sleep year.

It is all a question of thermal mass, the bigger, the longer it takes to freeze though.... the stored energy to cope with leaf damage. Bigger = more able to cope with defoliation..... and the growth rate. A established mature width Phoenix canariensis_CIDP able to produce 10 to 20 leaves a year, and newly planted one in it's sleep year possibly none so defoliation at that point will probably be fatal.

[Nathan]

Also one cold winter a palm may be able to recover from, but after THREE cold winters like the UK has just had then it becomes too much for some to take...

[Adrian Brattle]

So its looks as if for Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is that zone 9b (-3.9C to -1.1C) is its natural northern limits, when taking the young ones into consideration.

[Yorkshire Kris]

So its looks as if for Phoenix canariensis_CIDP zone 9b (-3.9C to -1.1C) is its natural northern limits, when taking the young ones into consideration.

Why try and use the american hardiness system when it is not really applicable in the UK?

[Adrian Brattle]

So its looks as if for Phoenix canariensis_CIDP zone 9b (-3.9C to -1.1C) is its natural northern limits, when taking the young ones into consideration.

Why try and use the american hardiness system when it is not really applicable in the UK?

Its not applicable for the usa either, its just the most well understood.

[billdango]

in the russian palm city of sochi, there are hundreds of cidps. the winters are similer to tresco but they do on some years get a hard freeze .
although a lot of the younger palms are protected losses do occur and the cidps and other palms are defoliated,but because of their hot summers they do make a full recovery.
unlike the uk which gets long spells of cold and wind which can turn our summers into a mockery of the word, this never happens in sochi .
this is the reason why palms that we struggle to grow are doing so well in other parts of the world[look under palm cities].
billdango.

[AlanWMids]

The real problem that causes the damage is the duration of the freeze. This Winter gone, most areas of the UK spent up to two weeks below zero with insufficient solar heat to prevent the night time temps from falling and then falling further. However, Central London had enough urban generated and retained heat to prevent that prolonged severe freeze.

In terms of subsequent recovery, the point made above about the lack of sufficient Summer heat is also important. Again, the conditions and mass of concrete, brick and stone in Central London help to mitigate the generally poor English Summer.

Alan

[billdango]

actually we just got lucky last winter. iff the winds had stayed in the north and north east till march as it did in the winter of 1962-1963 no cidps or most other palms would have survived. i,ll repeat again we were very lucky??.
rgds billdango.

[Dave Brown]

actually we just got lucky last winter. iff the winds had stayed in the north and north east till march as it did in the winter of 1962-1963 no cidps or most other palms would have survived. i,ll repeat again we were very lucky??.
rgds billdango.

Not necessarily, we were all on our own in 62/63.... now we talk, confir. exchange ideas. One person has a good way to protect we all know without having a book published

[billdango]

thats true dave,the first time i saw cold hardy palms was when i had my first holiday in france. it was there at the age of 19 i visited the city of pau and it was there i saw thousands of t fortuni lining the streets and filling the gardens.
as pau can get winter temperatures down to -12c in some winters i thought to myself why can,t we grow these palms in southampton?.
back in the sixties it was impossible to buy palm trees in any local garden centers, so because of this i had to wait untill 1975 when i heard of the palm center in lincs.
thanks to bill spinks the palms i have in my front garden became a possibility.
these were purchased as young 12 inch plants and planted in sept and oct of 1976 at the end of that glorius summer.
rgds billdango.