Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

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cordyman
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by cordyman » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:48 pm

Nathan wrote:Here they are in their former glory...

Thanks!

Wonder how much hardiness such mature trunk adds to the plant? -12*c as a rough guess?

But prolonged 2 week freeze -5*c ?


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billdango
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by billdango » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:59 pm

Probably what happened was a hard core of wet frozen snow collected at the base of the leaf crown and over a period of time rotted the base right through to the growing point.

Plus 2 lousy sunless summers followed by a long spell of freezing cold then the dreadful sunless so called spring of last year and that was the end.

It happened to a lot of CIDPs in Southampton but some of these have recovered and are slowly growing again.

The best thing that can happen now is to cut their losses and just replant with a couple of new 6 foot specimens after digging out the dead palms so that in 100 years some one else can enjoy those replacements.

billdango icon_sunny icon_sunny


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Nathan
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Nathan » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:30 pm

cordyman wrote:
Nathan wrote:Here they are in their former glory...

Thanks!

Wonder how much hardiness such mature trunk adds to the plant? -12*c as a rough guess?

But prolonged 2 week freeze -5*c ?
Well it depends on the climate. Mature Phoenix canarienis were reputed to have survived as low as -20C in Italy in 1985 with a 2ft cover of snow. They were completely defoliated but because of the short duration, possible insulation by the snow & quick warm up, plus the drier climate, they recovered...

In wet climates such as Ireland they will be killed at much higher temperatures as cold + wet are a no no for most palms. The mature Phoenix on Tresco were defoliated by the -7C they saw in 1987, but obviously recovered.

I'd say in the UK the limit even for a mature Phoenix canariensis is around -8C.
Malta - USDA Zone 11a


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fern Rob
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by fern Rob » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:54 pm

could do with something quite tall to add the effect back in.
Rob
( Tree Fern hunter )


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rburrena
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by rburrena » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:48 pm

Nathan wrote:
cordyman wrote:
Nathan wrote:Here they are in their former glory...

Thanks!

Wonder how much hardiness such mature trunk adds to the plant? -12*c as a rough guess?

But prolonged 2 week freeze -5*c ?
Well it depends on the climate. Mature Phoenix canarienis were reputed to have survived as low as -20C in Italy in 1985 with a 2ft cover of snow. They were completely defoliated but because of the short duration, possible insulation by the snow & quick warm up, plus the drier climate, they recovered...

In wet climates such as Ireland they will be killed at much higher temperatures as cold + wet are a no no for most palms. The mature Phoenix on Tresco were defoliated by the -7C they saw in 1987, but obviously recovered.

I'd say in the UK the limit even for a mature Phoenix canariensis is around -8C.
A mature Phoenix canariensis_CIDP near me got -9C/-10C in Dec 2010. It is STILL recovering 3 years later. It's lucky we got a very good summer last year, otherwise it may have been dead or nearly by now I think. They can survive quite low temps but in a cool climate recovery can be slow I think.


melon yost
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by melon yost » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:20 pm

Interesting posts about the recovery after cold spells. I saw those ones in Croatia in May 2012. They had an unusually cold spell during the previous winter, and there were lots of mature Phoenix Canariensis, all of which looked like this:

Image

Are those likely to recover from this? Unfortunately I can't find any more recent more information about it but the following winters have been normal.


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Nathan
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Nathan » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:31 pm

Yes the climate there is much warmer & drier so no doubt they will have already recovered...
Malta - USDA Zone 11a


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fern Rob
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by fern Rob » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:40 pm

wish our climate was a little warmer and drier.
Rob
( Tree Fern hunter )


Conifers
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Conifers » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:07 am

From another forum:
Posted by aubreyfennell, at 2014-02-17 00:03:01, said:
To All Palm Lovers,

Unfortunatly the remaining Phoenix in Fota was killed by the 2010 freeze. It was one of a pair.

The other had died in about 1998. Young trees planted at the Bamboo Park, Glengarrif in West Cork in about 2000 were also killed and just one or two had survived when I last visited in 2011. Trachycarpus takil and fortunei came through fine and if my memory is correct one or two Chamaerops humilis also survived. The imported mature Jubaea chilensis at Kells Bay gardens in Co.Kerry also survived the 'Big Freeze'

The good news is that an equally large mature Phoenix canariensis in the lost gardens at Belgrove, Cobh, which is less than 5kms from Fota and crucially 1c milder came through fine. Check it out on the Tree Council of Ireland website and click on heritage tree database.

Aubrey
Interesting to know about the others at Belgrove!


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Nathan
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Nathan » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:46 am

Yes there is one at Belgrove, which is now the only mature Phoenix canariensis left in Ireland. The photo is from 2009 however so not sure if it looks as pristine now...
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Malta - USDA Zone 11a


Alexander
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Alexander » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:24 am

Its still amazing how much cold those Phoenix canariensis can take! I am just back of 2 weeks Gran Canaria and Tenerife. And on Cran Canaria they are common in the southern and eastern Barrancos. There they grow in a semi dessert climate at places where there is water. And it got pretty hot there that 6 of Februari. I had to take of my shirt, that hot did it get. During Jly and August it get much hotter. Up to 35 C and more. Sometimes 40 C I was told by the locals. Never frost although the nights get chilly . Well 10 to 12 degrees feels chilly with the dry air.

But in Ireland and the UK they get much colder wetter conditions! Despite that they grow well there in milder areas.
Maybe that hardiness goes back to a colder period on the Canary Islands during the Iceages. So a short of genetic inheritance of a colder period. Just a theory of mine.

Alexander


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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by aubreyfennell » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:20 pm

The original crown of the Belgrove tree hangs limp and dead but as of summer 2013 about a dozen new fronds have emerged from the top. Fota island went down to -7c in December 2010 while Roche's Point at the mouth of Cork Harbour dropped to -4.4c. Belgrove,Great Island would have been something in between. There was about 4 weeks of sub-zero temperatures for the whole country at that time and it even killed native species such as Ulex,Ilex and Arbutus. Go to Met Eireann website and click on Past Weather, then click on Monthly Weather Bulletin and scroll through to December 2010. Have a look at the satelite photo. The only snow free areas are the south coast of Ireland and Cornwall.
Aubrey Fennell, Tree Register of Ireland

PS. Belgrove was a famous garden in the late 19th century where William Gumbleton introduced and wrote about many tender trees and plants. He was renowned for being a spikey and pompous individual and used to clobber any plant with his umbrella that did'nt come up to his high standards,and that was in his friends gardens! He died in 1911
and this palm is a fitting memorial to him.


Conifers
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Conifers » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:31 pm

Thanks for the update!

Found it on google earth: 51.868597 -8.213889


Rob S
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Rob S » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:26 pm

I've just had the most brilliant and unique idea! Plant some new ones!


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Yorkshire Kris
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Re: Cork Phoenix Canariensis dead

Post by Yorkshire Kris » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:56 pm

Rob S wrote:I've just had the most brilliant and unique idea! Plant some new ones!
What a good idea.


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