Wind Tolerant Palm Advice

[darran]

I am starting to think about creating a new border at my villa in Portugal and would like to plant a couple of palms to add some height.

I dont want anything that will be huge (ie Phoenix canariensis_CIDP) but it has to be very wind tolerant as the villa is only 3000m from the sea and on an elevated postion facing the atlantic (which also can mean some cold northerly winds in the winter). However, on the plus side the border will be in the sun from dawn till dusk and will eventually have a pool constructed infront of it, so that may help to raise the humidity. The villa is just to the south of Lisbon, and can have temperatures of 40c+ in the summer but I have heard that there can also be a very light frost on rare occasions in the winter.

I was thinking along the lines of Rhopalostylis sapida (Nikau Palm) as I have seen these growing in some gardens or something with a similar habit or look...does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts!

[stephenprudence]

Hi Darran,

How windy does it get there? I'd guess really wind tolerant plants such as Nerium oleander (although I guess they grow naturally in Portugal?)

I'm not sure whether its possible in your climate, but how about Musa cavendishii these bananas are quite wind proof in my experience.

I imagine a Nikau would be ok given it is a windy area where it comes from.

Wind is a major problem though, I lost two fresh leaves on a Basjoo today (I had to cut them off) in order to prevent rot from setting in, real shame as it looked good, so I realise how important wind is.

How about a bird of paradise maybe, Syagrus (queen palm), or maybe even Archontophoenix if they can grow in your area?

[darran]

Thank You Stephen. It can get very windy in the winter where we are located, the village is on a peninsular which is the second most westerly point in mainland europe.

The sygarus would seem to be a good suggestion as they appear to be both wind and drought tolerant. Does anyone know if Archontophoenix will grow in my conditions?

I have an image in my mind of what I want to achieve . I ideally want two slender trunked feather palms, one at each end of the border. They will then be underplanted with plants that dont get much higher than 2m as I dont want to block the view, and I can also use screening to protect from the wind. The underplanting will consist of stuff like strelitzia, clivia, cycas, phoenix robellini,etc

[stephenprudence]

Archontophoenix is a zone 10 plant I think, what is your minimum temperature on average?

You could probably get away with planting Phoenix robelinii in theory, it seems to be quite wind hardy, there is one planted in the ground not far from me, and it didn't seem to be touched by the 70-80mph gusts we recieved last year, or the 100mph gusts of the year before, which was very impressive.

if you wanted a palm thats prooved for hardiness in your location I'd say perhaps Dypsis decipens (although perhaps too big)?

Finish off with a Wodyetia bifurcata (only joking even thats too much for Portugal)

[Adrian]

Darran, the best way to make your decision is to look around the local area and see what is doing well and see what takes your fancy.

[Doug-Tews]

I'm not certain Archontophoenix would be a good choice because of the extremely high summer temperatures in that area. Many tropical palms are from very humid areas seldom seeing temperatures above 37 degrees.

What you're talking about is the potential of desert heat coming in from the interior (also very dry), which will burn many tropical species. Therefore it makes sense to look at species known for desert use. If Phoenix canariensis is too big, what about Phoenix dactylifera? It is known to thrive under such conditions and is not as big as canariensis. Dactyliferas are planted throughout that area and the Mediterranean.

Adrian's advice is right on the money, however. Take a drive around and see what others are using. You might do some research and see if you can find any palm growers or nurseries in the area. They would also know what works well there.

[Dave Brown]

Darran, will you be having irrigation while you are away... the summer is pretty dry there . If you have water perhaps something like Ravenea rivularis

[darran]

Sorry, I am having trouble with my internet connection today and everytime I try to repsond, I loose connection

Adrian, Doug,

I have been having a good look around the area and the only palms that I see are Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's and Washy's. That may well be due to the fact that they are the best for the area, but I think it is more to do with the limited choice available and the even more likely the unwillingness to try anything different or new.

There are very few garden centre's in the area, and most of the homes are either weekend/holiday homes or small holdings, so gardening is not on the top of the priority list.

Dave,

Yes, I do plan to have the border irrigated and had looked at the Ravenea rivularis online and also the smaller Ravenea glauca.

[Adrian]

Must say I thought of Ravenea at first but didnt mention it as Im not sure of its wind resistance or more like its resistance to wind burn.
I agree with dactylifera being a much smaller trunk and crown but better still, try sylvestris, they are all along the sea front at Nice in the South of France so are definately salt resistant, not sure how much wind they get but they should be good for you Darran.
You would need to get a fair sized one mind, at least head hieght as they are sharp little things when young (dont know if they lose this later in life but I havent been spiked by any sylvestris I couldnt reach )

[Doug-Tews]

I would have very considerable doubts about Ravenea rivularis...I've grown them in Florida. When they first appeared back in the early 90's, they took the nursery trade by storm and were planted everywhere. However, the enthusiasm waned after a few years as they were very problematic. Very few of those palms are alive anymore.

First, when young, they burn quite easily. Second, even when older, most were chronically yellowish, never thrived and inevitably went into decline. I had a couple myself and despite my loving care, they never did well either...and I think I now know why:

A friend of mine also had one. He took a hint from name rivularis and planted his right on the water's edge of a small lily pond. Not only did the palm get its roots into the water, but the lily pond was loaded with nutrients and the palm loved it. It was a spectacular specimen and I've never seen another one like it.

I've also seen pictures of this palm in its native habitat where it occurs along river edges. The conclusion: This palm apparently needs to get its feet right into the water, a situation not practical for your location. I never knew this and had mine planted in well drained locations, which is what most palms like...but apparently not this one! Instead, rivularis obviously has a passion for lots and lots of water.

I still say your best bet is some type of desert palm. Adrian's suggestion of Phoenix sylvestris is a good one to look into and especially consider Phoenix theoprastii. It's native to Crete, not all common, and is also smaller than some of the other Phoenix. Some of the Brahea's would also be very good candidates.

[darran]

There is more to consider than I had originally thought

I am enjoying the debate and would like to thank you for your input so far, I have very little experience with palms and I am new to gowing in a mediterranean climate so I am all ears!

[Dave Brown]

Doug, I also thought of Brahea, but Darran suggested he was looking for a feather palm. My R, rivularis used to burn when put out for the summer, but I always thought that was due to most of the growth being made inside in the UK.

I lost mine this year after 17 years. I agree they like water, which was why I asked about irrigation. Mine was planted in a 24 inch play tub with no drainage holes. I drilled one hole in the side 4 inches from the bottom, so it was sitting in water all the time. It went into decline last year and the growing point rotted off this spring. I didn't realise what was happening until after it had died. It had quite a bad infestation of mealy bugs, which I thought I had got rid of, but they had got right down into the crown, where you could not see them. Lesson learned, if is see mealy bug, go for systemic insectacide.

I do like this palm and have some yearling seedlings. Given the right conditions.... wet feet, they grow very fast. The largest is 18 inches tall, has 9 leaves, the last 5 fully pinnate, and the lastest leaf has 22 leaflets. Most palms are still at the strap leaf stage after 13 months.

[darran]

I dont know if this is of any relevance but one very common plant in the local area is Araucaria heterophylla (Norfolk Island Pine). These grow very well and are very popular, having just done a quick google they seem to like cooler, moist conditions

[stephenprudence]

Norfolk Island Pine is a zone 10 plant isnt it. Wouldnt have a chance in UK but it may work in Portugal. Its a common mediterranean plant, especially in Greece!

edit: thats pretty much what you said

[Adrian]

Doug, interesting on the rivularis front, I knew they liked plenty of water but not stood in it. Im going to put my potted palm into a deep tray and see what happens.
I have a couple of smaller R. glaucas too, do you have any info on these?