Phoenix canariensis - numpty question

DavidF · Post by **DavidF** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:12 pm

Sorry to ask such a dumb question but I've never really had much success with this plant.

Just how low will they go? My experiences so far...

3 small B&Q jobs, unprotected .............dead
1 small GC job, a few fleeces thrown over it last winter when needed..... spear pulled in May, started to sprout again 3 weeks ago

It's not getting protected as it looks a mess.
But it is alive so far.

I bought a 5 footer this summer, as all opinions seemed to suggest that bigger was better (from a hardiness viewpoint). It's still in a pot.

Can I just leave it out with fleecing in cold weather? Bearing in mind I went away for 4 days last week and came home to a garden of mush, so cannot always be here to protect at short notice.

The only other option is to bring it into a cold room in the house for the winter..............

What would you do???? I know I'm much colder than most, just wondered if it is a good idea to keep it indoors?

Palmer · Post by **Palmer** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Dave in 05-06 winter i had -8 there leaves were burnt but they racoverd, in the country side around were i live they had -9 to -10 there was 5 phoenix canariensis in the country side that i know of and they were all dead so i recone thats as low as they will go

Adrian · Post by **Adrian** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:36 pm

David, not a numpty question at all, a damned hard one in fact, I dont know.
I struggle with small ones, as Ive said in another post, I used to have them as bedding plants.
Ive gone up and up in size trying to get them through winters, Im now with two good sized CIDs.
The one pictured below was bought for £119 and another smaller one in the front garden was bought for £100, anything smaller hasnt made it unscathed.
I have a couple tucked away that have defoliated and made recoveries but recoveries are painfully slow.

The one in the pic fitted in my astra van when it was full of tools

its grown a lot since then but it was still a fair size when planted.
Its been there since 2003 but I still protect it.
I tie the fronds together, if it gets really cold its easy to wrap some hessian around the lower part (where I can reach)
The one in the front is more sheltered but still I tie the fronds together.
Being tied up keeps the spears protected, if the outter leaves get damaged they can be cut off in late spring.
The one in pic has 8 to 10 leaves removed each year so removing a couple of manky ones is no problem.
I do laugh on different forums when people shout that thier CIDs have come through this and that cold spell without damage, youll see any damage in late spring when the spears are pushing out, not in mid winter just after a frost or a bit of snow.
Id suggest you give a Phoenix canariensis_CIDP protection if you can, its all worth it in the long run.

Mick C · Post by **Mick C** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:40 pm

Hi David

I have only got a small Phoenix canariensis_CIDP myself, which I overwinter in the greenhouse, wrapped in fleece, so I can't help much with personal experience. I intend to keep it in a pot, moving it into the greenhouse in winter, for a few years yet.

I visited Paradise Palms to buy a Butia this summer. The owner, who operates from his home in Sheffield, has a nice specimen that he told me had been outside for a few years. It was in really good nick and was about this size: (hope this link works)

http://www.raintreetropical.com/nursery/pr_palms.html

the one in the box planter; his might have been a bit bigger.

Good luck with yours.

AndyC · Post by **AndyC** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:53 pm

I haven't a lot of experience growing palms but I can say that the overhead rain shelter makes a big difference to survival chances. I had two relatively small Phoenix canariensis_CIDP in the ground last winter, one with the shelter and one without. I pulled the spear on the one without shelter in March. It has recently produced a new spear but is way behing the other one.
I've done the same again this year with the rain shelter.

I went to see the Southsea CIDPs last summer, they are an inspiration. I would be a very happy man if one day I could stand under the arching leaf of one of my very own

Las Palmas Norte · Post by **Las Palmas Norte** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:46 am

Some years ago, a friend in Castroville California sent me 50 Phoenix canariensis_CIDP seeds. All germinated and today only 2 survive after being put to the test.
I have a 6'er (not from the above experiment) planted outside. I have a shelter for it during the winter which seems to be the leg up it needs. A Chamaerops gets the royal treatment too since it's close by.

Cheers, Barrie.

flycasual · Post by **flycasual** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:39 am

Great pic Adrian! I have a young Phoenix canariensis_CIDP in a large pot which currently only has the soil covered with plastic sheeting to keep it dry. I heard this is necessary as the wet combined with the low temp will contribute to a plam disaster. I'm just wondering whether to just go ahead and wrap it in fleece now or wait until there's severe frost forecast??

thanks

Post by **Dave Brown** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:05 pm

They are far better off with air moving through the crown. So if they are wrapped it is better just when necessary rather than for long periods.

David, Up at your altitude, you are probably going to get lots of rain as well as cold, so a rain shelter would be good. I'm still not decided on whether buying big is better

They will certainly take more cold before freezing through, but very often geeting a big plant to settle in and become fully extablished, takes longer than you may think. I your position I think I would plant a smallish one and build a palm house around it. For the first couple of years lift the roof a bit like a cold frame for ventilation in mild weather but don't be too eager to completly remove it keeping the palm and soil warmer. You will find once established it will far outgrow a big field grown one that has had the roots butchered.

Think of the palm centre one.

As it gets bigger it will need less protection, but if you get lower than -8C you'll still need to protect.

DavidF · Post by **DavidF** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Thanks guys, well, that is an eye opener and I'm glad I asked the question now.
Adrian I never would of imagined that you still protected yours at that size. I think I just assumed that as long as you either grew them to a decent size or bought large, then they were a dead cert. Yours is a beautiful plant though.
And Barrie, 2 out of 50 says a lot doesn't it?
There must be a lot of dead Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's scattered around come Spring, especially up here.

After this years spear pulling, even after such a mild winter (and with fleece when the weather did get cold) I decided to just not bother with them, but of course a few months later there's a five footer in B&Q for 20 quid and you cant resist eh

I think that long term I'll plant it out eventually and build a shelter around it, but as it's in a big pot, for this winter I'll bring it indoors I think, as the greenhouse is full and too cold anyway. It will be my biggest houseplant that's for sure!

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:59 pm

David, 2 years ago there was a proliferation here, several years of cheap B&Q Phoenix canariensis_CIDP,s had thrived in gardens and they were everywhere.
Most were exterminated by the winter before last.
Even my large one in a prime microclimate and close to the house lost its centre but it has grown back.

I think its one of those plants you have to treat as temporary ,it can survive for many years, but the first harsh winter is going to do for it.

Post by **Dave Brown** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:30 pm

I am pretty sure no-one is protecting them around here, as the DIY stores sell them as Hardy Palms, but as I said on another topic our lows have only been around -5C in recent years, and I'm on the edge of the countryside, further into the town it is maybe a degree warmer.

This is my planting from June this year. Had the palm from 2002 from B&Q for £2.79, and grew on a bit in a small pot.

Las Palmas Norte · Post by **Las Palmas Norte** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:06 pm

I recall previous posts on Phoenix canarienis in Timaru, New Zealand, and them being survivors with temps down to -11c (12f) for brief periods. It's been suggested they are a purer form of canariensis and therefore able to take these temps in stride.

Cheers, Barrie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timaru,_New_Zealand

Adrian · Post by **Adrian** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:18 pm

Several of us tried the timaru CID a few years back, no more hardy than normal CIDs at a smallish size, dont recall any surviving.

Post by **Dave Brown** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:53 pm

I have a few Southsea CID seedlings which I will let get a lot bigger before I decide what to do with them. It seems they take 3 years for the fruit to mature with our short summers, compared to one season in the Canaries. Their winter in not much worse than our summer.

As we seem to be doing fairly well on the Phoenix canariensis_CIDP stakes in Gravesham. I may well speak to the Council about planting some down on the Prom (Riverside)

Germinated SCIDPs

The thing is that the Canaries are in the cool Northeasterly currents that flow from Europe on their way back to the tropics, the return for the Gulf Stream so to speak. This cool current produces very little rain bearing cloud, and so the Canaries are extremely dry, less than 200mm per year in coastal areas. However the height of the larger islands force cloud to develop so there is moisture. In its natural environment the Phoenix canariensis_CIDP will get water from the ground, but rarely from rain. This is why a rain shelter can be important. Also anyone who has been to the canaries will know that it is breezy on most days. Some Islands more so than others. They don't have parasols on Fuerteventura or the tourists would be doing Mary Poppins impersonations

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:08 pm

Certainly, on every occaision this topic is raised you can guarantee a multitude of responses, based on individuals experiences with this palm. Some positive, others less so.

I've grown them here in Worcestershire for some time now, with winter temps down to -9.5 on one occasision. However, with sensible protection I have never witnessed anything worse than a few burned leaf tips on the outer fronds. I'm not suggesting Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's are hardy, far from it. What I am suggesting is that by following the golden rules mentioned previously, many people, throughout most parts of the country can enjoy this stunningly architectural palm. My Jubs exposed to the same conditions have sustained considerable damage, this just highlights the complexity of plant hardiness.

The secret to growing Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's is simply keep them dry, well drained and don't over feed. Buy small and cheap, as once established they grow very quickly. I also believe that root stock is also one of the most important aspects.

I have two distinct types of Phoenix canariensis_CIDP.

A slender one,

and a stocky one.