Blue leaved palms (subsequently botanic naming rules)

[Conifers]

googled the word 'argentea' and it turned out to be french for 'silver'

Latin, originally!

[themes]

Its very simple argentea means silvery grey thats it. Whether that was invented by the Romans the French or Arthur, a middle aged pipe welder from Rochdale makes no difference and has no bearing to why some are using this plant name and not Cerifera.

[Dave Brown]

The problem is that suppliers maybe from the originating country do not know what they have dug up, or got seed from Wholesalers make a guess, and it is sold on as that name.

[Conifers]

Whether that was invented by the Romans the French or Arthur, a middle aged pipe welder from Rochdale makes no difference and has no bearing to why some are using this plant name and not Cerifera.

The reason that botanists use the name Chamaerops humilis var. argentea is because it is older. In plant naming, the oldest legitimate name takes precedence. The name Chamaerops humilis var. argentea dates from 1885, while the name Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera wasn't coined until 1920. First come, first served.

Anyone who uses the later name is plain wrong. Nurseries and wholesalers very often are, as they don't take care over their names. They are more interested in profits than accuracy.

[themes]

Whether that was invented by the Romans the French or Arthur, a middle aged pipe welder from Rochdale makes no difference and has no bearing to why some are using this plant name and not Cerifera.

The reason that botanists use the name Chamaerops humilis var. argentea is because it is older. In plant naming, the oldest legitimate name takes precedence. The name Chamaerops humilis var. argentea dates from 1885, while the name Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera wasn't coined until 1920. First come, first served.

Anyone who uses the later name is plain wrong. Nurseries and wholesalers very often are, as they don't take care over their names. They are more interested in profits than accuracy.

so by that logic we all have chamaerops excelsiors and fortunei is not valid.

[grub]

I don't know Mo but I'd hazard a guess at Fortunei being named after Robert Fortune and maybe the Chamerops tag was just another "it's different, honest!" for the nurseries

[Dave Brown]

The reason that botanists use the name Chamaerops humilis var. argentea is because it is older. In plant naming, the oldest legitimate name takes precedence. The name Chamaerops humilis var. argentea dates from 1885, while the name Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera wasn't coined until 1920. First come, first served.

Anyone who uses the later name is plain wrong. Nurseries and wholesalers very often are, as they don't take care over their names. They are more interested in profits than accuracy.

so by that logic we all have chamaerops excelsiors and fortunei is not valid.

This is getting off the Blue Palms subject, perhaps we should have a Botanical Naming Conventions topic in the General Plant Discussion forum it may be useful to a lot of us.

Mo, in answer to you question, I don't know which came first Chamaerops excelsior, or Trachycarpus fortunei, but Trachies are not related to Chamaerops which is probably why it changed. Same happened with the Queen Palm... used to be Arecastrum romanzoffiana but is now a Syagrus

[themes]

This is getting off the Blue Palms subject, perhaps we should have a Botanical Naming Conventions topic in the General Plant Discussion forum it may be useful to a lot of us.

Mo, in answer to you question, I don't know which came first Chamaerops excelsior, or Trachycarpus fortunei, but Trachies are not related to Chamaerops which is probably why it changed. Same happened with the Queen Palm... used to be Arecastrum romanzoffiana but is now a Syagrus

it was not a question Dave. Over time plants can be proved to be a new species or variant because they exhibit a unique trait not found in existing species. When this is the case a new name is used.

[simon]

...and it's not excelsior, it's excelsa, as in: Rhapis excelsa; Meterosideros excelsa; Knightia excelsa; etc.

[John P]

On the EPS this topic was discussed and David York posted this message which sums it up.

John, I remember this subject being raised before. The form from the Atlas mountains in North Africa was provisionally given the name 'argentea' but was soon renamed 'cerifera'. This form has a blue waxy coating on both sides of the leaves - in Latin, cerifera means wax-bearing. The form with the silver undersides is argentea, which means in Latin, silver or silvery. These tend to originate from Northern Italy. In the USA, these are known as 'Silverbacks' and fetch a premium price. I suspect that because cerifera was originally called argentea, this has caused the current confusion with the names.


Argentea



Cerifera

[themes]

do all the undersides have to be silvery for it to be argentea, the thing is a have a chamaerops which has this colouring on newer leaves but not on older leaves I notice. It is noticeable as the new spear emerges too. I assume its producing the same wax which cerifera has but not as great a quantity. I have not been paying attention to see if rainwater washes it away. Thats another thing, is it actually washed away or does the water just mask it for a short while until the foliage dries?

Great Looking Palms BTW.

[Conifers]

On the EPS this topic was discussed and David York posted this message which sums it up.

John, I remember this subject being raised before. The form from the Atlas mountains in North Africa was provisionally given the name 'argentea' but was soon renamed 'cerifera'. This form has a blue waxy coating on both sides of the leaves - in Latin, cerifera means wax-bearing. The form with the silver undersides is argentea, which means in Latin, silver or silvery. These tend to originate from Northern Italy. In the USA, these are known as 'Silverbacks' and fetch a premium price. I suspect that because cerifera was originally called argentea, this has caused the current confusion with the names.

Sorry, but that comment is a load of stercus taurinum

Once something is named, the name can't be changed to something else completely different later. Chamaerops humilis var. argentea is, and remains, the correct name, for the dwarf palm native to Morocco. The name "cerifera" should be consigned to the compost heap.

[Dave Brown]

Sorry, but that comment is a load of stercus taurinum

Once something is named, the name can't be changed to something else completely different later. Chamaerops humilis var. argentea is, and remains, the correct name, for the dwarf palm native to Morocco. The name "cerifera" should be consigned to the compost heap.

Conifers, this is the difference between English and Latin, German or French etc. The reason English has more than double the number of words to many other major languages is that we borrow other languages words then apply them in differing ways.

Historically the Germanic word for an outer layer covering flesh is Hide ( or something like that). The Norse for the same starts with Sk(in) in English we have animal hide (thick) and human skin (thin)

To me regardless of what the botanists say, if we all know argentea as a silverback palm, and cerifera as blue waxed both sides. We are being more precise in what we are talking about. The problem is the wholesale palm trade uses whatever they think will sell most product.

[Conifers]

This is nothing to do with language, it's about the rules of botanical naming. These clearly state that the first validly described name is the correct one to use. You can't reject a name because it is considered to have an incorrect meaning.

[Dave Brown]

This is nothing to do with language, it's about the rules of botanical naming. These clearly state that the first validly described name is the correct one to use. You can't reject a name because it is considered to have an incorrect meaning.

I agree they are the botanic rules, but as 99.999999% of the population, including me, have not read, and therefore do not abide by the rules, there is plenty of scope for confusion. The Botanical rules forbid keeping up with the times unless they whoever they are, decide to change them, but they simply do not have the resourses to keep abreast with new findings.

They can say what they like, but if I see a palm with waxy blue leaves I will call it cerifera rather than argentea, because that better describes what I am seeing, and I want to distiguish between the two. Ok if we were to call it Chamaerops humilis argentea var cerifera I would be happy.