What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Dim

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Dim » Thu May 16, 2013 7:39 pm

something new from the UK, which I will be trying soon in my own garden (made from worm humus/vermicompost) and cheap: (I use worm compost a lot, and IMHO, it's the best by far)

http://ecoworm.co.uk/?page_id=72

and from their website discussing the products:

http://ecoworm.co.uk/?page_id=11

cordyman

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by cordyman » Thu May 16, 2013 7:49 pm

Vagetarian wrote:
Having said all that, it should definitely be true that most of our soils are very rich in both P and K and that annual N applications are really all that is truly required. .
Am I right in saying though for super freaky big leaves not just run of the mill gardening, annual N just wouldnt cut it?

Hence the 2 weekly application is needed for monster foliage?

cordyman

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by cordyman » Thu May 16, 2013 7:52 pm

Dim wrote:scotts lawn builder lawn fertilizer .... has an NPK of 22-5-5 with a bit of iron .... a large bag will last several seasons and can be bought for approx £25 ..... just make sure that you get the one that does not have the weedkiller, as there are a few varieties

http://www.lovethegarden.com/product-de ... n-food-2kg

Thanks! so high Nitrogen is the main number of the three to strive for when after big leafs icon_thumleft

cordyman

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by cordyman » Thu May 16, 2013 7:58 pm

Kristen wrote:
cordyman wrote:Any amazon or ebay fert you can buy in bulk 5kg or 10kg tub, which is easy to mix in watering can and good for fert loving plants, aroids, ensetes, ricinus, tender big leaf growers basically icon_scratch icon_scratch
Phostrogen is probably pretty much a like-for-like swap for Miracle Gro - except that it won't die your fingers blue!

You might like to look at the Chempak range; T & M recently bought the company (dunno if that will turn out to be a good or a bad thing) ... and they have a special offer on at the moment, but you'll have to buy at least 3 [mixed will do] packs to get the discount.

http://search.thompson-morgan.com/search?w=chempak

(Might not look that cheap, but worth comparing how much made-up volume a packet will make)


Looking through the chempak range would this be the one to get then?

http://www.thompson-morgan.com/garden-s ... /kww2550TM


I went out and looked at my current ferts in the shed earlier, why do the ROI values differ from UK?


miracle grow, why so high on K?

Image

chicken poo, quite low N... and lower p and k

Image


fish blood bone

low all rounder...

Image



so out of my current line up miracle grow seems way ahead of the pack with ultra high N. I'm going to check out Phostrogen in this case, as if similar and no blue stain sounds perfect?

Kristen

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Kristen » Thu May 16, 2013 10:08 pm

cordyman wrote:Looking through the chempak range would this be the one to get then?

http://www.thompson-morgan.com/garden-s ... /kww2550TM
That's the High Nitrogen one, so sounds right. Dunno why, but T&M haven't bothered to put the N:P:K ratio on the Blurb, which would have helped in knowing whether it was ideal, or not.
why do the ROI values differ from UK?
I've often wondered that ...
miracle grow, why so high on K?
Helps with fruiting, and probably flowering too. Thus ideal for bedding plants, which probably covers most of their user-base :)
chicken poo, quite low N... and lower p and k

fsh blood bone ... low all rounder...

so out of my current line up miracle grow seems way ahead of the pack with ultra high N. I'm going to check out Phostrogen in this case, as if similar and no blue stain sounds perfect?
Note that N:P:K of 1-2-3 and 2-4-6 are the same, just the second one is twice as strong (so you only need half has much) - broadly speaking. So its only the difference in ratio between the N, P and K that you need to consider - if that makes sense?

May not be accurate, but I have a note that:

24-8-16 : 50%-15%-33% Miracle Grow All Purpose
14-10-25 : 27%-20%-53% Phostrogen

so they aren't really the same at all :(

Miracle Grow has twice as much K as P, and 50% more N than P

Phostrogen has 2.5 times as much K as P, which looks OK, but less N than P. You could boost the N with some lawn fertilizer, or some other high nitrogen fertiliser.

Also from my notes:

1.3-0.3-0.4 : 65%-15%-20% Turkey manure

is the closest I have (to Miracle Grow), but looks like you'll need a lot of it!

Dim

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Dim » Fri May 17, 2013 6:22 am

as a general fertilizer, I have been using bat guano which I get from our local hydroponic store ....

I buy it for £18 in a large 5 litre tub, and a level tablespoon per large shrub sprinkled around the root zone once a month is all that is needed .... for smaller plants, a level teaspoon per plant is all that is needed ...

a 5 litre tub lasts more than a year in an average sized garden, as you only need to use it once a month from early spring till late summer

amazing stuff, (especially with vegetables and roses) and there are different types of bat guano (some high in nitrogen, and some high in P and K) ....

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Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Dave Brown » Fri May 17, 2013 7:48 am

What we have to be careful of is producing an imbalance in the plant. Very high nitrogen N feed will produce huge leaves out of kilter with roots, and without P, internal processes in the plant may slow down. Very large leaves with little root result in a plant collapsing in hot, dry weather, as transpiration will greatly exceed the ability to take up water.

I use different NPK for different plants. Miracle-gro and Phostrogen will produce good results in general, but Miracle-gro's high N given to Aroids where leaf is important works better. Flowering/Fruiting plants like Tomatoes and Brugmansia may do better with Phostrogen's high K. However, people really sing the praises of Chicken pellets, and they are roughly 3-3-3 Blood Fish and Bone is roughly 5-5-5.

All in all, unless you know what you are doing, it's best to stick to balanced feed :wink:
Best regards
Dave
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_________________________________________________
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http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk

Vagetarian

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Vagetarian » Fri May 17, 2013 8:44 am

The article that Dim linked suggests that most gardeners do not need to add much extra P (and the same is usually true for K), hence why we'd probably mostly be just fine with adding only N. However, as I think Dave suggests, if you don't have a soil test then you don't know what to add. If you use a balanced fertiliser and don't add more than your plants remove then you can't end up with a build up of one particular element.

Miracle Grow is actually recommended for ornamental bananas, with an NPK of 28-8-18 (it's slightly different in the states). We must bare in mind that the high K levels are intended for flowering, something that's fairly rare in this country. We could probably reduce that to 28-8-8 for plants which are unlikely to flower. If I take my BFB (6-6-6) and my dried blood (15-0-0) and mix them half and half, the NPK will roughly average out to 10-3-3 (3-3-3 + 7.5-0-0), so I just apply 3 times as much as Miracle Grow and, essentially therefore, apply the equivalent of 30-9-9.

So, hence why I use blood, fish & bone on general plants like my tomatoes, but using that along with extra dried blood for large leaved plants.

Kristen

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Kristen » Fri May 17, 2013 9:07 am

Dim wrote:I have been using bat guano....
I'm really going to have to pull my finger out and try this. You've been touting how well these have worked for you for a year at least and I keep meaning to try them ...

Anyone any ideas for more-hours-in-the-day? :)

cordyman

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by cordyman » Fri May 17, 2013 5:43 pm

Kristen wrote:
cordyman wrote:
Miracle Grow has twice as much K as P, and 50% more N than P

Phostrogen has 2.5 times as much K as P, which looks OK, but less N than P. You could boost the N with some lawn fertilizer, or some other high nitrogen fertiliser.

Also from my notes:

1.3-0.3-0.4 : 65%-15%-20% Turkey manure

is the closest I have (to Miracle Grow), but looks like you'll need a lot of it!

Great advice across the board thanks!

So it sounds like miracle grow may actually be pretty good, (bar the blue staining grrrr) always got the impression is was the uninformed mans easy choice from the DIY shed icon_scratch

cordyman

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by cordyman » Fri May 17, 2013 5:45 pm

Dave Brown wrote:What we have to be careful of is producing an imbalance in the plant. Very high nitrogen N feed will produce huge leaves out of kilter with roots, and without P, internal processes in the plant may slow down. Very large leaves with little root result in a plant collapsing in hot, dry weather, as transpiration will greatly exceed the ability to take up water.

I use different NPK for different plants. Miracle-gro and Phostrogen will produce good results in general, but Miracle-gro's high N given to Aroids where leaf is important works better. Flowering/Fruiting plants like Tomatoes and Brugmansia may do better with Phostrogen's high K. However, people really sing the praises of Chicken pellets, and they are roughly 3-3-3 Blood Fish and Bone is roughly 5-5-5.

All in all, unless you know what you are doing, it's best to stick to balanced feed :wink:

If DaveB reccomends miracle grow for aroids, I don't think I can get a better fert than that :D After seeing the size of that Alocasia X Calidora, i've got something to aspire to drunken_smilie1 drunken_smilie1 drunken_smilie1

Dim

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Dim » Fri May 17, 2013 5:57 pm

cordyman wrote:
Kristen wrote:
cordyman wrote:
Miracle Grow has twice as much K as P, and 50% more N than P

Phostrogen has 2.5 times as much K as P, which looks OK, but less N than P. You could boost the N with some lawn fertilizer, or some other high nitrogen fertiliser.

Also from my notes:

1.3-0.3-0.4 : 65%-15%-20% Turkey manure

is the closest I have (to Miracle Grow), but looks like you'll need a lot of it!

Great advice across the board thanks!

So it sounds like miracle grow may actually be pretty good, (bar the blue staining grrrr) always got the impression is was the uninformed mans easy choice from the DIY shed icon_scratch
http://davesgarden.com/guides/terms/go/2307/

snip:

From Organic Gardening Magazine, July/August 2000 Issue.

Miracle-Gro is a synthetic fertilizer that contains ammonium phosphate and several other chemicals that can be toxic to your soil and plants. It is prohibited from use in certified-organic farming. Here’s what soil expert Robert Parnes, Ph.D., says in his book Fertile Soil: "[Ammonium fertilizer] acidifies the soil, and thus it is probably more harmful to soil organisms than any other nitrogen fertilizer . . . . The application has to be timed carefully and placed properly to avoid burning the leaves and roots . . . . In addition, ammonium tends to inhibit the release of . . . potassium . . . Ammonium fertilizers are deliberately manufactured to be spread at high application rates in order to obtain maximum yields with no regard to adverse effects on the soil. Probably nowhere is the conflict between the mass production of food to feed the world and the preservation of the soil more obvious than in the confrontation over the use of either ammonium fertilizers or liquid ammonia."

And there’s more: long-term studies at the University of Wisconsin have shown that acidic chemical fertilizers are causing serious, permanent damage to our soils. Usually these fertilizers are also highly soluble, so they leach away and pollute our water systems, too. Soil fertility authority Garn Wallace, Ph.D., of Wallace Laboratories in El Segundo, California, points out that Miracle-Gro contains muriate of potash, which contains excess chlorine that will burn plants and inhibit the uptake of nitrogen. Dr. Wallace also warns that products such as Miracle-Gro often contain unsafe levels of zinc and copper that will be toxic to soil life.

And if all that’s not enough to convince you to avoid this stuff, consider this: you have to mix Miracle-Gro with water and apply it ever "7 to 14 days." If you opt to fertilize organically, on the other hand, all you have to do is mix a ½-inch layer of grass clippings into your beds before each crop. As the grass decomposes, it will improve your soil’s texture and stimulate microbial life and help prevent disease, all while releasing plenty of nutrients to feed your plants. (For full details on organic fertilizers, see "How to Fertilize Your Garden," Organic Gardening, July/August 2000.)
-KATHY BAUMGARTNER, Fremont, Michigan

And in Closing I Must Add...
"Real Gardeners Grow Without Miracles!"


Read more: http://davesgarden.com/guides/terms/go/ ... z2TZgysN9t

and this:

http://roseredandlavender.com/blog/what ... acle-grow/

quote:

It makes me sad to see this crappe being used to grow food that our kids are eating and it makes me angry to see it being sold in local stores. They don’t care about you, your plants or the planet, they just want a cheap product that will make a buck.

Here is whats wrong with inorganic fertilizers.

SALTS

Using inorganic fertilizers over a long period of time will decrease the available nutrients in the soil, depleting it of the building blocks that plants need to make VITAMINES.

PESTICIDES

In 2008, the EPA ordered the Scotts company to recall two Miracle-Grow products because they contained trifuralin, a herbicide. This ingredient was not listed on the label. Herbicides are a commonly known carcinogen. Who knows what else is not listed, I don’t, its a trade secret.

ENVIRONMENT

Many of the ingredients in inorganic fertilizers do not come from sustainable resources. Coal and Gas are used to produce the nitrogen used in Miracle Grow. The excess salts that are not absorbed by the plants are washed into local water sources. These are the nutrients that responsible for excessive algae growth which create “dead zones” in our rivers, lakes and oceans (yes oceans).

Miracle Grow Soil is a peat based soil, peat is a non-renewable resource. Hyponex Soil is made from construction waste and sewage debris, not something I would taste.

OTHER INGREDIENTS

Miracle Grow potting soil contains OTHER INGREDIENTS, these include plastics, wetting agents and peat, a non sustainable resource. These ingredients have not been tested or proven to be safe for use with FOOD!!!!!> Most wetting agents are detergents and many are known carcinogens.

Miracle Grow does have an “organic” line of products, these also have wetting agents, peat, and who knows what else. In my opinion, who would want to support a billion dollar chemical company that is single handily responsible for polluting our environment and depleting the food we eat of nutrients, I don’t.

Anyhow, no, we don’t sell Miracle-Gro and we never will.


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Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Dave Brown » Fri May 17, 2013 6:44 pm

Dim, you can spend a fortune on Bat guano, Wasp wee, or Millipede muck if that is what you want, but that article is on par with Climate Change stuff..... immediately ignored by me, as a "we are right, as we say so" :roll:

I've didn't said my Aroids were organic :wink:
Best regards
Dave
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OxfordNick

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by OxfordNick » Fri May 17, 2013 6:54 pm

Chempak #2 - high nitrogen - I use half strength once a week or so.
Image
--

Dim

Re: What bulk fertiliser for tender big leaf growers?

Post by Dim » Fri May 17, 2013 6:57 pm

Dave Brown wrote:Dim, you can spend a fortune on Bat guano, Wasp wee, or Millipede muck if that is what you want, but that article is on par with Climate Change stuff..... immediately ignored by me, as a "we are right, as we say so" :roll:

I've didn't said my Aroids were organic :wink:
Dave .... we all have our own preferences and our own ways and methods of doing things .... I don't use miracle grow on my own plants or on my client's plants unless they tell me to use the stuff .... I used to use it when I first started gardening, as I believed the hype and the adverts ...

frequent the cannabis forums where guys don't mind spending extra, and who are masters at fertilizing and who understand more about fertilizing than many farmers..... they want the best, as they make a living from growing, and you will find that they shun products such as miracle gro ... they have compared and tested most (if not all) the fertilizers and nutrients currently on the market

there are much better fertilizers and nutrients but they cost slightly more ...

and to be honest, I do use chemical fertilizers but only for lawns .... the reason is that I make money from mowing lawns, so I add scotts etc and keep the lawns in a 'drugged state' and it grow faster.... and by doing so, my clients pay me extra to mow it extra ... but it's not healthy lawn

speak to any groundsman who manages a golf course etc and he will verify 8)

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