Coldest Place in Brazil

[bodster]

my eriospatha is half the size of my capitata but does seem to grow a lot quicker

[Dave Brown]

Nigel, thanks for the topic. Could be good to see what else may grow here.

So we know -17C and 180km wind. Darran, did they mention rainfall? if it is dry cold we could end up with rotting problems.

The other thing which no-one seems to take into account is light levels, and day length. I say this as my Washingtonia robusta grows well into Novemeber, but becomes very spindly, with leaves easily damaged by wind.

If many of these plants survive -17C, with hurricane force winds, they may think our winter is quite balmy and try to grow, but with light levels much lower than in its natural environment.

I may be wrong but this area seems to be around the Tropic of Capricorn (can't get to the link now posting)which is the same-ish lattitude as the Canaries.

[Mick C]

Hi Ali

Yes they are great looking palms aren't they?

My eriospatha is green, while the capitata is notably bluer. Like Martin my capitata is much larger, but will not be planted until next spring (planted the eriospatha this summer).

It will be interesting to watch the growth rates.

[Alexander]

Hello,

I have been in that area.In Sao Joaqium and Urupema, where it can get minus 12 and colder, you see Butia eriospatha in gardens. In the wild they grow on lower altitudes from 800 till about 1100 meters and sometimes with Syagrus.Places where you can see Butia eriospatha in the wild is near:Palmeira,Monte Carlo, Lebon Regis to Curitibanos along the road and Brunopolis. Summers are simmilair to the south of France and warmer then in Sao Joaqium. The Butias grow in open campos vegetation among grasses and herbs.

The fact that I have seen good specimems of Butia eriospatha in Sao Joaqium, where the oldest ones where about 40 years old and in a halve degree colder Urupema give me good hope that it will be hardy in colder climates like we have in Holland and Britain. And because Britain has milder winters then we have it will be probably full hardy there and survive your coldest winters.
But only time will tell...

P.s. Near Sao Joaqium I also have found a few bromelias, 2 Tillandsias, T. usneoides, a small Oncidium and a Rhipsalis on trees.
They can survive temperatures of minus 14 celcius apparently! Strang to find this kind of tropical plants there!

Regards,

Alexander

[Palmer]

Alexander, that is very interesting there must be a ready market in europe for hardy epiphyte's is there anyone who as collected them for the european market?, if i thought i could cover my cost i would be tempted my self. By the way nice to see you on hear.....Tony

[Nigel]

Hello,

Summers are simmilair to the south of France and warmer then in Sao Joaqium. The Butias grow in open campos vegetation among grasses and herbs.

The fact that I have seen good specimems of Butia eriospatha in Sao Joaqium, where the oldest ones where about 40 years old and in a halve degree colder Urupema give me good hope that it will be hardy in colder climates like we have in Holland and Britain. And because Britain has milder winters then we have it will be probably full hardy there and survive your coldest winters.
But only time will tell...


Regards,

Alexander

Alexander, I think people might misunderstand this statement slightly ........ here people tend to think of south of france as very dry, sunny, hot in summer and mediteranean.
I suspect you are talking about the area inland.

Summer on the tablelands where Butia eriospatha grows means rain almost daily , a lot of cloud and temperatures that rarely reach 30C. The nights do tend to be warm though.
Winter around the Butia eriospatha forests is cold enough to burn off leaves on Dicksonia sellowiana which is on a par with Dicksonia antartica, so it must be quite harsh at times.

[Dave Brown]

the area inland.

Summer on the tablelands where Butia eriospatha grows means rain almost daily , a lot of cloud and temperatures that rarely reach 30C. The nights do tend to be warm though.
Winter around the Butia eriospatha forests is cold enough to burn off leaves on Dicksonia sellowiana which is on a par with Dicksonia antartica, so it must be quite harsh at times.

Nigel, I know you are talking about eriospatha here, but as I said on previos post, my capitata grew visibly in the cooler, wetter 2007 summer, where it did nothing in the hot, drought 2005/6, so water may be more key than temperature. Or to put it another way temperature without much water does not suit it.

[Nigel]

as I said on previos post, my capitata grew visibly in the cooler, wetter 2007 summer, where it did nothing in the hot, drought 2005/6, so water may be more key than temperature. Or to put it another way temperature without much water does not suit it.

Dave, all palms need a lot of water to grow well, its a common misconception that because they are drought tolerant they grow well in desert conditions, in fact they only grow well when they have access to lots of water.

[Dave Brown]

[Dave, all palms need a lot of water to grow well, its a common misconception that because they are drought tolerant they grow well in desert conditions, in fact they only grow well when they have access to lots of water.

They weren't completely dry Nigel, probably 10 gallons or so, in buckets, a week as we had a hose pipe ban, but this year with cooler temps, more cloud, and some rain, coupled with being able to use the hose, seems to have suited better. Must admit I did give it a couple of shots of palm booster in early summer before it cooled down. Maybe that is it

[Alexander]

Nigel,

Well about the similarity of the climate in that Butia eriospatha and the south of France, a place like Toulouse lays also in the south of France. I was i n that area the 22 and 23 of Februari and it was about 30 degrees.And with the hot sun and all the sounds of insects and the smell of herbs it remind me of Southern Europe. It was just an impression. And I had printed the page of Butia eriospatha from your website to show the people in Brasil where I could find the palm. And they contacted me with a Dutch agronomist who showed me the palms.
I have a booklet about the Serra Cartarinense, the climate of Lages for example wich lays on 916 meter is described as subtropical. Well they have a lot of Hibiscus rosa sinensis there in gardens like in the south of Europe. And Palmeira wich lays on 886 meter has an annual avverage temperature of 15 celcius.
That is very similair with the south of France.
The coldest temperatures they had in Nice for example was minus 14 somewhere in the 1980 in one of those very cold winters. And snow is,nt uncommon sometimes in the Med.
And in fact Butia eriospatha is a subtropical plant like Musa basjoo or a lot of other hardy subtropicals we grow. Subtropicals wich can endure more then you would exspect of their origin. And what to think abot the big Phoenix canariensis in parts of Enland, it is as subtropical as a palm can be but still its growing very well in the southwest of your country! A certain number of exotics seem to grow very well under cool summerconditions as long the winters are not to cold!
And the climate in Sao Joaqium was a lot colder then where I saw the Butias in the wild, more like England or Holland. And they where doing well there!
I also have noticed that Dicksonia sellowiana grows in the cooler more humid higher parts then Butia.

From that Dutch agronomist I have some climatic data of several places in the area.

Regards,

Alexander

the area inland.

Summer on the tablelands where Butia eriospatha grows means rain almost daily , a lot of cloud and temperatures that rarely reach 30C. The nights do tend to be warm though.
Winter around the Butia eriospatha forests is cold enough to burn off leaves on Dicksonia sellowiana which is on a par with Dicksonia antartica, so it must be quite harsh at times.

Nigel, I know you are talking about eriospatha here, but as I said on previos post, my capitata grew visibly in the cooler, wetter 2007 summer, where it did nothing in the hot, drought 2005/6, so water may be more key than temperature. Or to put it another way temperature without much water does not suit it.

[Alexander]

P.s.

A mistake has happened, I took the wrong one to reply your reply on my message about Butia eriospatha in Brasil. And not all the south of France has a mediteranean climate, the south west is more atlantic. And the Dicksonia sellowiana where abunadant higherup in cooler wetter parts like Sao Joaqium.

Regards,

Alexander

Hello,

Summers are simmilair to the south of France and warmer then in Sao Joaqium. The Butias grow in open campos vegetation among grasses and herbs.

The fact that I have seen good specimems of Butia eriospatha in Sao Joaqium, where the oldest ones where about 40 years old and in a halve degree colder Urupema give me good hope that it will be hardy in colder climates like we have in Holland and Britain. And because Britain has milder winters then we have it will be probably full hardy there and survive your coldest winters.
But only time will tell...


Regards,

Alexander

Alexander, I think people might misunderstand this statement slightly ........ here people tend to think of south of france as very dry, sunny, hot in summer and mediteranean.
I suspect you are talking about the area inland.

Summer on the tablelands where Butia eriospatha grows means rain almost daily , a lot of cloud and temperatures that rarely reach 30C. The nights do tend to be warm though.
Winter around the Butia eriospatha forests is cold enough to burn off leaves on Dicksonia sellowiana which is on a par with Dicksonia antartica, so it must be quite harsh at times.

[Nigel]

P.s.

A mistake has happened, I took the wrong one to reply your reply on my message about Butia eriospatha in Brasil. And not all the south of France has a mediteranean climate, the south west is more atlantic. And the Dicksonia sellowiana where abunadant higherup in cooler wetter parts like Sao Joaqium.

Regards,

Alexander

Alexander, I am saying about the climate itself being totally different. That area of Brazil has copious rain and a lot of cloud, the french med is sunny and very dry, it is very different.
I am not surprised that the average temperature in Nice would be similar.
For sure Dicksonia sellowiana grows well at higher altitudes but we found them growing in exposed gardens in Butia eriospatha habitat and the leaves were burnt off. I have a picture somewhere, but it demonstrated to us that the winter can be really quite cold even if for short periods to do such a thing.

[Dave Brown]

I think the South of France weather is very complex. I don't have much experience as I have only visited Montpellier and Biarritz, the former is 4km from the Med, and the latter on the Atlantic (Bay of Biscay) coast, but both have some quite cool weather at times even in summer, and can be colder than the UK in winter. I can't comment on the rainfall, compared to Brazil, but they get more rain than we do in Kent. Also Marsailles has had minimums of -16.7C with a Mistral wind, much lower than I have ever experienced in Kent. My lowest is -12.9C on 6th Jan 1987. See pics of Kent Freeze Here

I think the term "South of France" is associated with the Med, but as Alexander said it is not all hot and dry. There are both the Pyrenees and the Alps at quite low lattitude.

[Nigel]

I think the term "South of France" is associated with the Med, but as Alexander said it is not all hot and dry. There are both the Pyrenees and the Alps at quite low lattitude.

Arghh ( sounds of grinding teeth from bristol) that is the point I was trying to make !!!!
Butia eriospatha habitat is not the dry sunny location images of south of france conjure up.
It rains almost every day and everything is wet lush and green,and temp rarely exceeds 30C.

The following pic is at 1200M of a queen palm and the weather was typical of mid summer, around 25C, cloudy with intermittent rain. In the background is Butia eriospatha forest.

[DavidF]

Butia eriospatha habitat is not the dry sunny location images of south of france conjure up.
It rains almost every day and everything is wet lush and green,and temp rarely exceeds 30C.

Now, you chaps can debate the weather in the South of France for ever and a day but if the above is what an eriospatha likes then I'm pretty happy.

Rain almost every day and never exceeding 30C is something I can give it plenty of.......