Musa Dasycarpa/Velutina & Zebrina scarification results

[Vagetarian]

First off, this is not a very fair experiment because the seeds were already soaked in cool water and planted for a few weeks before being dug up for scarification. (I got bored)

I have 50 seeds of each species. After giving them all a few strokes (on a piece of sandpaper ) I gave them 48 hours of soaking on top of my coffee machine. They were probably up to about 40+ degrees for 9-12 hours per day.

After that I chucked them back into tubs of fresh vermiculite and back into the airing cupboard at around 30, or just under. Here's the tub of Velutina/Dasycarpa seeds after exactly 1 week:

As you can see, it's a bit of a fungus fest but you might also notice 5 or more sprouted seeds. I managed to find 10 in total, but there could have been more. I expect to lose some because I put them straight into pots at this stage, I was concerned about leaving them in the tub with the fungus.

Unfortunately I haven't seen any life from the Musa Zebrina seeds yet but likewise they're not being ravaged by the fungus quite so badly. Maybe there is hope for them yet!

What is exciting me about this is that scarification could prove very successful if you can adequately protect the seeds from pathogens. In the absence of a laminar flow hood I am seriously pondering whether a Trichoderma mould (or other beneficial fungus) might help!

[Palmer]

What is exciting me about this is that scarification could prove very successful if you can adequately protect the seeds from pathogens. In the absence of a laminar flow hood I am seriously pondering whether a Trichoderma mould (or other beneficial fungus) might help!

I haven’t had much luck with scarification usually if they don’t germinate within two or three weeks then they never will.
This year I’m thinking of using the baggy method and chopped up sphagnum moss as a planting medium, the moss is said to have antiseptic qualities so I’m hoping that will inhibit the mould.
What you’re proposing to do sound very interesting and I’m looking forward to hearing about the outcome!!

Tony

[Vagetarian]

I hear what you're saying, it may turn out that this only really works for the easier germinating seeds. I think most would agree that Velutina sprout more readily than Zebrina?

It's nearly 2 weeks and still no sign of a Musa Zebrina. I really should have kept half back as a control because for all I know they may not have been viable in the first place!

Beneficial fungi have repeatedly been shown to increase seed germination and speed, but I've not seen any data on such slow and erratic seeds.

If I try this in future I will use sterilised and inoculated potting compost, rather than sterile vermiculite. I would also probably soak the seeds in a sticky water based solution containing the fungal spores, as has been done successfully with tomatoes, corn, tobacco, etc.

[flounder]

In the past I've had to wait 6 months for any germination signs from zebrina, so don't be in too much of a hurry to discard them. Also remember the low percentage of germination for a lot of musa species

[GREVILLE]

Both these gave me zero germination after more than a year, but didn't try scarification.

[flounder]

After a year, I probably would have bought some more

[GREVILLE]

I did. I replaced them with plants

[flounder]

Done that with nagensium

[GREVILLE]

Been waiting for Nagensium along with other nana seeds and plants from James at Europalms since last October.

After reading this thread I'll try scarifying some of the seed to compare notes, as long as I haven't lost viability with the wait

[Vagetarian]

Indeed flounder, not chucking them away yet. Like I say, the Zebrina seeds are not being hit by the mould so badly so there's still a lot of hope! And the generally low germination rate was what made me so excited about these results.

If you're going to scarify, I very strongly recommend you do something to hold the fungus back or they'll all be fluffy puffs of mould within a few days!

Maybe they should be soaked in a mild bleach solution before scarification. Or perhaps hydrogen peroxide?

[Dave Brown]

By scarifying I take it the aim is to get water into the kernel. Not tried it on Bananas but for Ensete soaking in hot water and allowing to cool does the same trick, with a lot less effort. The hot water (50C ish) just starts to hurt when your fingers are dipped in. The seed are poured into the hot water, heats up expelling air from inside. The as water slowly cools the cooling seed draws water insde

Canna - The seed are immersed in a small quantity of warm water, then very hot water, just off the boil, it poured in. The seeds crackle as they split. Germination is then a few days rather than 6 months

[sanatic1234]

I haven’t had much luck with scarification usually if they don’t germinate within two or three weeks then they never will.
Tony

I have been told they can take months to germinate palmer, so may be keep the seeds longer than 2-3 weeks. I think my musella lasiocarpa's took just over a month to germinate.
I currently have some velutina in soak have been for 2 days now. I will give them at least 4-5 months before considering binning them. I was told a while back to be more patient with banana seeds. As at one time i was very impatient.

[Vagetarian]

Dave, that is the idea yes. It's been said that no matter how much you soak them, some may still be dry in the middle. I do need to try the hot water trick, it's probably the best method all round, certainly the easiest.

sanatic, you definitely have to have some patience with these dry old banana seeds that are for sale. I recently had 2 'Daj Giant' seeds sprout together 2-3 months after sowing. All my Musella seeds (the ones that germinated) sprouted at roughly the 1 month mark too.

Back to scarification, I have actually found an excellent peer reviewed article. If anyone is interested in it then send me a PM (there is also one on temperature fluctuation). I had to access it through online university libraries because I wasn't willing to pay the $10 that some other website was charging!

Basically, you need to surface sterilise and scarify the seed, sow it in agar jelly and give it the proper temperature. Sterilised water should do the trick fine too. Close to 100% germination is achievable under lab conditions with fairly fresh seeds. I don't think they mentioned anything like a laminar flow hood though.

I've chucked the Musa velutina seeds now but I'm still holding out for a Musa zebrina seedling, only fungus is having any joy with them.