Phoenix theophrasti the survivor (and Phoenix discussion)

[Dave Brown]

My one time Phoenix reclinata, that turned out to be theophrasti survived the winter with only being tucked into a southwest corner as protection. It did suffer damage to some leaves, but has started to grow again now. I gave it a tidy up and had to remove several leaves. All the suckers were killed in the freeze so have been removed

Here it is tucked up for the winter, which turned out to be the worst for 20 years

Here in it's summer position with some damaged leaves

and here trimmed up ready for summer growth

I know there is some debate about how hardy these are, but it suffered more damage than my Phoenix canariensis_CIDP which was unscathered

[Jellybob]

Thats a nice plant Dave. How long has it that pot and will it need moving into something larger The reason I ask is that I have a nice Phoenix, as said before sold as a Rupicola, some debate as it may be a cross, spikey bits a lot less deadly thean Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, thinner trunk, and I would like to know how Phoenix grow in pots. I've seen them push up out and try to escape.

[stephenprudence]

Theophrastii is one of the hardier date palms isn't it? I'm not surprised that is survived really, it would have to be quite cold to kill one of them?

As I see it in a natural climate, the natural vegetation usually takes about 10 degrees below its usually absolute minimum temperatures away from the coasts.

So given the absolute minimum temperature inland in Crete at sea level is probably about 2C, I would suggest this palm has a hardiness of about -8C?

[Dave Brown]

Theophrastii is one of the hardier date palms isn't it? I'm not surprised that is survived really, it would have to be quite cold to kill one of them?

I'm not sure it is as hardy as some people think. I'm sure Adrian, John P and a few others have lost them. I have to give it, its due, it was in a slightly less sheltered (overhead canopy) position than the Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, but was completely sheltered from the NE Blast we had in Feb, unlike the Phoenix canariensis_CIDP which took the full force

[Andy Martin]

I would have expected Theophrasti to be less hardier than Canariensis. Theophrasti hails from the Med and in particular Crete. Winter lows are generally frost free there but the cold is more pronounced. I suppose Crete gets more of a baking Summer than the Canaries so that may balance it out.It still remains a mystery to me how Phoenix canariensis_CIDP has an inbuilt frost resistance from a Climate that is sub-tropical

[Adrian]

Theophrastii dont like the British winter, too wet, too cold.
Ive lost a couple now and doubt Ill try again as these things are so leathal its unreal.
Dave I looked at your first pic and thought reclinata, the last pic more theo like.
My test to find out if its reclinata or theophrstii is to give it a hug, reclinata will hug you back whereas theophrastii will turn you into a tea bag before you get your arms around it

[Dave Brown]

Ade it was sold as reclinata, but was you who diagnosed it as not reclinata when I decribed the fierce thorns near the base od the leaves and all leaf tips are stiff and sharp. It also suckers up the trunk, which I think you said Reclinata suckers from under ground.

The proper reclinata I have now is much softer

[Adrian]

Yes Theo is sharp all over from the first spikes on the petiole through to the latest leaf tip.
Saw the one in the Temperate House on saturday and its looking good.

[stephenprudence]

I would have expected Theophrasti to be less hardier than Canariensis. Theophrasti hails from the Med and in particular Crete. Winter lows are generally frost free there but the cold is more pronounced. I suppose Crete gets more of a baking Summer than the Canaries so that may balance it out.It still remains a mystery to me how Phoenix canariensis_CIDP has an inbuilt frost resistance from a Climate that is sub-tropical

This is because actually Phoenix canariensis are not from the Canary Islands - I'm not sure why it's called canariensis, as it actually comes from the western Sahara, where temperatures do get quite cold in winter.. definitely worth a bit of research to find out why it got the name 'canariensis'

I think it may be the same reason as Cordyline australis get the name 'Torbay Palm' here. It would be interesting to see how long it has had it's scientific name of canariensis - but the term Canary Island Date Palm, refers to the ornamental value of the palm on the Canary Isles perhaps after the initiation of a tourism industry on the islands, like the ornamental value of 'Torbay Palms' in the UK

[irish dave]

Stephen are you a 100% sure,I thought Phoenix canariensis_CIDP native habitat is the Canary Islands

[stephenprudence]

I'm absolutely sure, I remember reading about it in a academic journal in my last year of uni - I would always search for journals on exotic plants, when I had nothing to do - it was something like the Journal of world plants in the subdivision Journals of Ecology but I can't remember for sure.

Anyway the main crux was that Canary Island Palms are not native to the Canary Islands, but they are used as ornamental planting on a large scale. The plant actually originates from Western Sahara (just below Morrocco)

However, thinking about it I disagree with the article, the Canary Islands are relatively new in geological time scale, and it was probably only around 200,000 years ago that they part of the mainland of Africa (given sea level dropping) and either dispersed by growing on land links or dispersed by seed (as there is no way they would have got to the Canary Islands without help), so I wonder whether the article was referring to that - it could well be that the plant did actually originate from the western Sahara but through time and with great evolutionary modification they have change from the Dactylifera form into the canriensis form, and evolution would explain this.

I didn't read on far enough, or don't recall any other part - that seems quite plausible to me, that the canriensis branch of the Phoenix is the results of island evolution.. and explains its cold hardiness.......!

Yes Ecology, I love it!!!!!

[Dave Brown]

Stephen, I think you are getting this out of context 10,000 years ago the UK was a tundra joined to mainland Europe, and had virtually no plants. Today we say we have a wealth of 'native plant'. Many millions of years ago most of Britain was tropical with swamps hippos, crocodiles etc.

The conditions for Phoneix carnariensis have not been favourable for it on mainland Sahara Africa for many, many thousands of years, IPS (International Palm Society) journal HERE goes through the history. It it likely it's ancestors originated in Tropical Mediteranean areas, and moved south as the climate cooled and dried. Yes it would have been around the Western Sahara a few million years ago, but Phoenix canariensis_CIDP has evolved into a palm that it is today due to the unique conditions on the Canary Islands and is the most adaptable of any, according to the journal taking heat, cold, dry, and flood conditions.

I have visited The Canaries many times, and one visit really stands out. I went to the Island of Gomera about 20 miles west of Tenerife in 1994. It was like stepping back in time. They had cars although not many, but the way of life continued as it would have done before tourism. The higher mountains are covered with tree heathers with CIPD intermingled. Phoenix canariensis_CIDP are everywhere..... on mountains, in valleys, on cliff faces etc. This is certainly not planted as a decorative tree.

This is typical Gomera, terraced farms with Phoenix canariensis_CIDP dotted all over the place, included the bits they can't farm.

Looking down into one of the valleys with Phoenix canariensis_CIDP scattered down the terraced hillside

[Adrian]

"Phoenix canariensis is endemic to the Canary Islands and occurs scattered, in populations of varying sizes on all seven islands.
The largest populations of wild palms are found on La Gomera."

Taken from 'A revision of Phoenix' by Sasha Barrow reprinted from Kew Bulletin vol. 53 part 3 1998.


Dave, on suckering Phoenix, all but 4 species (canariensis, rupicola, sylvestris and andamanensis) produce basal suckers which may or may not develop into full grown trunks.

[Alexander]

Phoenix are now only found in the (sub)tropics of the Old World. But in the past it was also found in the New World as fossil founds have proven.

Alexander

[John P]

Dave you were right the theophrasti is another deadun in my garden.

I shall not bother to replace it.

John