Trachycarpus fortunei verses Wagnerianums

[Conifers]

In nature selective breeding can result in creating a new species where it can only reproduce with plants similar.

Point is, it takes thousands of generations to accumulate enough genetic changes to make something a different species. 'Wagnerianus' has only been bred for a handful of generations, and the differences, while conspicuous in terms of morphology, are insignificant in genetic terms. And yes, it is recorded as cross-pollinating freely and successfully with typical fortunei.

[themes]

I have something of interest but need to take a pic. will post tomoz Conifers. Your logic is sound, I still see them as unique however. Jubaeas and Butias can interbreed and create hybrids syagrus and butia. I am keeping an open mind and just stating that I consider it a unique palm in its own right

[Dave Brown]

Mo, I think the point Conifers is trying to make is that Waggies are unique in appearance only. A bit like a 6 foot Dahlia and a 1 foot Dahlia, but only the cultivar is different, they remain the same species.

[Conifers]

Mo, I think the point Conifers is trying to make is that Waggies are unique in appearance only. A bit like a 6 foot Dahlia and a 1 foot Dahlia, but only the cultivar is different, they remain the same species.

Yep, spot on!

[simon]

The logic sounds good but I'm not entirely convinced. Firstly we don't know how many generations the Japanese bred them for before settling with something they liked the look of. Secondly do we actually know how genetically distinct they are. Thirdly, botanists relied on visual characteristics to classify plants for hundereds of years, only very recently we have been able to look at the DNA and actually measure the distiction, so what is the correct way?

[Conifers]

Firstly we don't know how many generations the Japanese bred them for

Nowhere remotely near long enough to diverge as a separate species. Japanese gardening is ancient by UK standards, but in evolutionary time, it's still just a flash in the pan. For new plant species to evolve, you're talking in terms of a minimum of 10,000-100,000 years, and in most cases, millions of years.

botanists relied on visual characteristics to classify plants for hundereds of years

Yes, that's why mistakes such as thinking 'Wagnerianus' was a distinct species came about, and why subsequent analysis is fixing such errors. But most botanists have been aware of such possibilities for a long time*, and take care to avoid making species of cultivated plants.

* As of course have zoologists too: Wolves and Coyotes look similar but are genetically distinct separate species. Dogs and Wolves often look very different, but genetically are virtually identical, and now classified as the same species. Waggie palms are just the Chusan Palm equivalent of dogs, just small, like chihuahuas or dachshunds.

[simon]

Firstly we don't know how many generations the Japanese bred them for

Nowhere remotely near long enough to diverge as a separate species. Japanese gardening is ancient by UK standards, but in evolutionary time, it's still just a flash in the pan. For new plant species to evolve, you're talking in terms of a minimum of 10,000-100,000 years, and in most cases, millions of years.

But, evolution only selects characteristics that are beneficial to the advancement or survival of the species and the characteristics are only caried forward by interbreeding of those plants that exhibit the characteristics. With human intervention the process can be significantly accelerated because it involves forced breeding between specially selected specimens. It may be a simplistic view but to me the visual difference is everything. I can't see how the genetic distinction between wagnerianus and fortunei can be any less than that, for example of Washingtonia robusta and filifera which I presume are recongnised as naturally occuring and distinct species which most people struggle to tell apart.

[themes]

I agree with simon on this. I thought this would be a pertinent example. I recently got this labelled as a fortunei. I got it for two reasons I have not seen one with a trunk like this. It has stiffer leaves and the petioles are shorter then any I have. Mine tend to have longer petioles but they are in shade so that may explain it. Could the trunk be a result of being in a pot or something else. The leaves have wagnerianus qualities in terms of how stiff they are and I also love the leaf shape of this. Any thoughts?

[Conifers]

But, evolution only selects characteristics that are beneficial to the advancement or survival of the species and the characteristics are only caried forward by interbreeding of those plants that exhibit the characteristics. With human intervention the process can be significantly accelerated because it involves forced breeding between specially selected specimens. It may be a simplistic view but to me the visual difference is everything.

The human intervention is only affecting one or two characters - the other 99.999% of the plant's genome isn't affected. The visual difference is NOT everything - there's also breeding systems, biochemistry, phenology, etc., etc., etc., which are - to the plant - far more important.

Does this look like a Wolf? It may not look like it, but it is one, just a sample that's been subjected to human intervention. All its biochemistry etc. is still pure Wolf.

ModifiedWolf.jpg (30.61 KiB) Viewed 2147 times

[ public domain pic from wikipedia ]

[pete G]

I'm assuming all waggies for sale are seed grown.

Bearing this in mind and conifers picture of a poodle.
It suggests to me that in future before buying a waggie it would probably best to ask if you can see both parents

[themes]

This poodle looks tougher

poodle-costume-doberman.jpg (55.52 KiB) Viewed 2140 times

[trachy1973]

Is it wearing a hoodie

[redsquirrel]

its saying 'bog off,i want a pee in peace'

[Mick C]

The pooch looks quite gloomy but then I'd be hacked off if someone did that to me.

Here's a link to an article on trachies, it doesn't really add to the debate and I'm sure many of you have seen it before but it's a good read: trachies


Also I copied this from Wikipedia or somewhere, I can't remember now or find it again. Tongue in cheek or not?

If any of the above is confusing, a simple fools guide to the Trachycarpus species is as follows.

Trachycarpus fortunei = bog standard fan palm with good cold tolerance

Trachycarpus nanus = dwarf fortunei

Trachycarpus takil = fortunei from somewhere you have to walk for 3 days to see. When you finally get there you wll be amazed by bog standard form. Soon to be available in two forms once court case is over

Trachycarpus oreophilus = fortunei that looks good in mist

Trachycarpus martianus = actually slightly different than fortunei although not nearly as hardy. Named after the person who discovered it.

Trachycarpus latisectus - halfway house between fortunei and martianus

Trachycarpus naini tal - exotic name given to bog standard form of fortunei

Trachycarpus manipur- wonderful photoshopped bog standard Trachycarpus that earned a pretty penny for its marketeers

Trachycarpus geminisectus - rare and unusual bog standard fortunei from somewhere no one has heard of.

Trachycarpus wagnerianus -the most distinct form of fortunei

Trachycarpus princeps - fantastic palm with glaucous leaves