Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your input.

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GoggleboxUK
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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GoggleboxUK » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:03 pm

What is your forecast for tonight and tomorrow Greville?

If the temperature is unlikely to get as low I'd be interested to see what temperatures you record using the containers and water but leaving them outside of the wigwam.

I think it's afirly conclusive that you have proven this method is successful at average UK winter lows.

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GREVILLE
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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GREVILLE » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:49 pm

Just managed to get a few pictures of the experiment before dark. Sand will help me file them tomorrow and hopefully some visual aids will throw a bit more light on things.

As no more air frosts are forecast this week, repeating the exercise as before is pointless, but Gog has boxed clever with the idea of keeping the bottles outside. I'll keep the double cotton layers on both containers but I will add another 1.5 litre bottle unwrapped, all outside the wigwam. The minimum tonight is only likely to be around +2c and the maximum around +6c.

Todays maximum was +4.6c
The current air temperature at 2230 is +3.3c
The temperature under the wigwam is currently +5.0c (No water containers inside all day)
The temperature of the hot water in all the containers is 51.0c


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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GREVILLE » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:06 pm

This morning's results, obtained leering through thick fog :><: after a minimum of +1.4C

0800 hr readings.
Ambient temperature +1.5c
Temperature under wigwam without warm water: +4.0c
Temperature of unwrapped 1.5 litre bottle outside wigwam: +2.5c
Ditto - wrapped 1.5litre bottle: +4.5c
Ditto - Wrapped 10litre canister: + 16.5c (That surprised me :shock:)

Set-up now dismantled as no more air frosts forecast ("ever" :D :roll: )

Hope to follow with pic posts.


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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GoggleboxUK » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:17 pm

Excellent work Greville, I was also surprised by the wrapped 10L container result but it just shows what good a few layers of fleece does in comparison with the unwrapped.

I had collected about 50 2L bottles ready for this winter but didn't get to use them. Your experiments have convinced me that I should keep them for next winter and I think I may even try and experiment using a thin wiwam and a few bottles to see how it gets a basjoo stem through winter.

I'm surprised that all the naysayers and doubting Thomases haven't joined in this thread, there were a lot of people who were very vocal about how ineffective this method would be.

*cough* <Adrian> *cough*

Who said that?

:lol:
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GREVILLE
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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GREVILLE » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:34 pm

I'll let others pass judgement, but other variables may wreck these sort of results.

In January 1987 I had an easterly blast that would have killed most of my current unprotected exotics. If the same experiment was hit by a sustained wind speed of 20 MPH and a temperature of -12c I doubt I would have got the temperature probe inside any of the containers, let alone want to open the blankets to measure inside :shock:

Perhaps a double layer, airspace in between, of polystyrene fish boxes... If it works in Canada......


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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GoggleboxUK » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:40 pm

I'm going to try with the thermal blankets too at the first opportunity.

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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by Kristen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:53 am

GREVILLE wrote:I was gob-smacked that one extra layer of insulation around everything should make such a difference.
Should we be surprised though? Sounds the same as the old "Put on another layer" advice in cold weather, or the way that government loft insulation thickness recommendations have increased over the years ...

What's the best outer cover for an arrangement like this to stop the "blankets" getting soggy? Old Gortex coats, or some such breathable-but-waterproof material? Probably available from the Charity shops for a pittance (mind you, I can probably get Mink from them for the same price, and Mink don't seem to mind the cold and wet !!)

The downside I perceive is asking my, thus-far tolerant!, neighbours to "Lock up the chickens for the night AND change the hot water bottles on the Palms" !
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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GoggleboxUK » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:00 pm

In all honesty I don't think a breathable layer is all that important using this method.

Because there is contstantly changing temperature under the blankets there will be constant air movement too. My intention is to do exactly what Greville has done and, as you say Kristen, increase the layers as the temperature gets colder topping the whole thing off with Mylar sheeting (thermal blanket) which will help contain the heat and keep the water out. These things are 2 gor a quid in the Poundshop and, if taped into shaped with duct tape they could easily be removed to allow the sun's heat to warm the blankets and interior of the wigwam during the daytime.

The question is does waterproofing matter in sub zero conditions? It's unlikely to rain and snow adds extra insulation. In a prolonged cold snap if the blankets did happen to get wet they'd soon turn to ice giving that igloo effect and if melt occurs they would only turn to water on the inside where the plant and ground would be above zero anyway. The wigwam shape of the protection would automatically stop cold meltwater going anywhere near the plant or heatsource as it would just run down the sides and freeze at the base.
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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GREVILLE » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:51 pm

The outer blanket only got wet with snow melt. The inner blanket stayed bone dry except at the bottom which did, of course, freeze. A tall and narrow wigwam arrangement still allowed good moisture run-off.

The blankets were spread out a little way on the soil and I noticed the frozen ground around the arrangement had only crept underneath the covers about an inch or so. Ice is not as good an insulator as snow but even an iced-up double blanket layer proved effective.

Sand has filed some pictures for me but as my son has been been downloading items all day and night 24/7 the laptop hasn't enough oomph to upload attachments. (Ironic - he's been downloading the complete series of 'The Shield', while I've been trying to upload pics of how I've been SHIELDING my PTvT from the freeze :roll: )


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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by Kristen » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:01 am

Good points. We cover out chicken coop in Winter with a blanket come rain or shine. It freezes solid, gets soggy when it rains, but still provides them some protection, particularly from cold wind.

I wonder if your Mylar thermal skin should be the inside layer GB? Reflect back the majority of the heat before it starts to try to warm the insulating layers?
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Re: Warm water protection experiment on Parajubaea - Your in

Post by GoggleboxUK » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:52 pm

Yes, for trapping the heat I suspect that would work better but for simplicity I think having the waterproof element to it as well would lengthen the life of the blankets and save a lot of work when the protection comes off with washing and drying.

Also, in periods where the temperature is rising during the day to significant levels but the forecast warrants keeping the protection on, there may me a risk of fungus attacks within the wet layers of blankets, mould and rot.

Possibly 2 mylene layers with blankets between, particularly for porolonged or deep cold would be ideal?
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