Hardiness debate losely around Phoenix canariensis

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Gaz

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Gaz »

It would certainly be unusual to see naturalised groves of them in years to come. However I would imagined the Victorian gardeners would have thought how marvelous woods of rhodedendrons or great swaves of Japanese Knott Weed would look.

:ahhh!:
Troppoz

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Troppoz »

Wasnt buddleia also initially tended and nurtured in hot houses before it became a naturalised urban weed in Britain?

Lantana was considered a prized glasshouse plant even in Australia in the Victorian times. Now its not only stepped outside the open glasshouse door but it runs amok from one end of the country to the other...

Nevermind I cant imagine Trachcarpus going feral over there...nothing to do with climate but where is there suitable available habitat for a Trachycarpus forest? I imagine you are all struggling to fit in with what little forest area you still have!

Sean
trachy1973

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by trachy1973 »

If I had a big enough garden Sean I think I would like to plant my own Trachycarpus forest but not many houses have that much space I am afraid unless you happened to be Richard Branson and have the cash available to buy a large field. :lol:

I think the largest amount I have seen growing over here so far were in that Churchyard in St Just in Cornwall in a previous posting. There look to be at an estimate circa forty to fifty Trachys growing there. :o

Keith
Gaz

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Gaz »

I didnt count them when we were in St Just last year, but id estimate even more than that.

If we are in that neck of the woods again for our Cornish holiday this year i'll try and get an estimate.
Troppoz

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Troppoz »

have that much space I am afraid unless you happened to be Richard Branson and have the cash available to buy a large field.
Keith that just reminded me of a fellow who joined this forum a few months back and posted a picture of a bloody great big Jubaea or something smack bang in the middle of an empty field. I went looking for that thread but I couldnt find it...

Now its got me wondering...did we ever hear from him again and wasnt it a bit odd that he didnt post any more photos??? Does that behaviour remind you of someone???? I hope he wasnt a pisstake too... :roll:
Last edited by Troppoz on Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Palmer

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Palmer »

Sean the person you are taking about is Henry,
he lives not to far from were I live, I haven’t seen his palms but he is genuine,
I have talk to people locally that know him and his palms long before he posted on here.
Troppoz

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Troppoz »

Tony I have just been advised that Henry checks out icon_thumleft

Sorry Henry if you read this no offence intended personally...its just that we have had this 'friend' drop by lately.

But I would sure like to see the after shots :!:
trachy1973

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by trachy1973 »

I wonder how his palms have fared through the recent cold spell we have had.? He is quite far north and I think he also had some P Dactylefera as well as some Washingtonia growing. Quite big specimens as well to be protected.

The location did seem a bit exposed to me and I can imagine those trees must have cost an absolute fortune!

Keith
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Dave Brown »

Henry, I apologise that people have had difficulty believing your jubeas were actually in Yorkshire, as has been said on this topic we do not accept what the books say, and "push our luck". Where as we are generally pushing boundaries, you are an absolute pioneer icon_thumright, which is where the disbelief comes in :roll: I must admit I had the same reception when I started growing Trachycarpus in the front garden in the early 1980s, people knocked the door asking how I got it in for the winter :lol:

Hope your palms have not been badly affected by the winter, although it sounds like the South took the brunt of the deep freeze, and it was less severe the further north you are. :wink:
Best regards
Dave
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dyls

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by dyls »

As an additional bit of data for cold and wet CIDPs...

I don't know what the definition of "flourish" is (grow fast? Look nice?) but I put a couple of the £3.99 B&Q CIDPs in the ground in 2006. They've never been protected. The first year they did nothing at all but in the appalling summer of 2007 they really greened up, even if they didn't put out much growth. In the even wetter, greyer and colder summer of 2008 they both doubled in size. They have suffered no leaf burn at all this winter, but paradoxically, this winter has been even milder than the last couple of winters at my house (I've only had to scrape ice off the car once this winter). But this hasn't been the same for all of the island - a friend of mine in the north has had to scrape ice off dozens of times.

There are not too many CIDPs around here yet (I don't think they were available up to the last few years) but the ones I've seen all seem to be getting on OK. One or two of the exposed ones tend to pick up a bit of leaf burn, and ones in the ground very obviously do so much better than ones in pots.
Troppoz

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Troppoz »

But this hasn't been the same for all of the island - a friend of mine in the north has had to scrape ice off dozens of times.
Thats a perfect example to show that there are those available microclimates, man-made or otherwise. Thats where gardeners such as yourselves can make the most and exploit that situation to create a niche for a 'tender' plant...
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Conifers »

Just joined after finding this thread on google . . . a few thoughts:

Is Phoenix canariensis really hardy in Britain? - I'd say the jury still has to be out. We can't say for sure until there's been another winter like 1981/82 (which I'm old enough to remember!), or maybe even 1962/63 (which I'm not!!). We've had an unusual run of ~25 consecutive mild winters, and no-one has mentioned a Phoenix canariensis_CIDP that's 30, or ideally 50+, years old. While global warming is responsible for some of the mildness of that run, it isn't enough to ensure that there won't be another Siberian-style winter with persistent E winds, widespread -15°C or colder, and weeks (even months) solidly below freezing day and night. A winter like that will happen again some time - I won't like it, but it will happen icon_pale

Newcastle's climate (and even more so, the Northumbs coast; Newcastle is 13km inland) makes an interesting test ground. The averages are lower than for much of the country, particularly in summer, but the winter absolute minima are surprisingly warm. Frigid Siberian winter air has to cross 600km of the North Sea to get here, whereas it only has to cross 80km or less to get to southern England and doesn't get warmed by the sea anything like as much. Tynemouth (Northumbs coast) has an absolute minimum of -7°C (Jan 1982), whereas even Scilly has had -9°C (Jan 1987; killed all their big Araucaria heterophylla) with Siberian cold able to go overland most of the way there. Kent, closest to the continent, gets horribly cold by comparison, e.g. -26°C at Bedgebury Pinetum in 1940 (Forestry Commission stats).

Up here, the further from the coast, the colder it gets. Newcastle, 13km inland, got down to -13°C in Jan '82, while Haltwhistle (65km inland) got below -20°C the same time.

The converse to the mild winter extremes is that up here at 55°N, the winter sun is only 12° above the horizon, so has no heat in it and there's a far higher likelihood of a frost persisting all day than there is further south. All our winter heat here comes from the sea, not the sun; -5°C at dawn only rises to -2°C, unless the wind direction changes and brings in more heat off the sea.

Phoenix canariensis_CIDP up here? I haven't seen any unprotected, and I don't think they will succeed either, because of persistent daytime cold even if it isn't severe cold. Chusan Palm is fine though, I know of a couple of 40-50+ year old mature ones in Northumbs that have been through the works undamaged. And lots of other oceanic climate species are fine too, look at Howick Gardens on the coast, they can grow a huge range of plants you'd normally only expect in Cornwall or Ireland.
I have had to convince countless people that I grow bananas in my garden
Musa basjoo or similar, I presume? Or is anyone actually growing Musa 'Cavendish' or other commercial edible banana cultivars outdoors in Britain? I'd bet that's what most people are thinking of when they show incredulity at growing bananas.
They have Trachycarpus at Inverewe (Ullapool, NW Scotland) don't grow fast but that is at 58 deg N
Also growing successfully in Tórshavn on the Faroe Islands at 62°N (Højgaard, Jóhansen, & Ødum 1989, A century of tree planting on the Faroe Islands).
for example on the Atlas mountains they may have an average yearly temperature of 10C but they can still grow Phoenix species palms on there
I never saw Phoenix spp. above about 1000m in Morocco; still quite hot at that altitude, particularly south of the Atlas. Chamaerops humilis var. argentea up to about 1800m on the Tizi-n-Tichka road though; cold but dry up there.
Adrian

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Adrian »

No its not really hardy in Britain, I think we all know that but it is growable.
One of those winters you mentioned would take out most things in the garden including the Cordylines but we dont garden with those winters in mind.
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Dave Brown »

Conifers, Welcome to the forum icon_salut

I don't take much notice of official books, as the RHS would have me believe nothing I am growing in my garden is hardy. I hear what you are saying about cold winters but I only put an overcoat on when I feel cold, not because it is a winter month. I will grow whatever will grow, and it is surprising what is much more cold tolerant than reference books suggest. Again hardiness is questioned, but what is it :?: Hardy 9 years out of 10 is hardy to me, as I would protect, given warning, on that 1 year in 10 that is too cold. 1 in 20 is what we just had in the south, and we all took losses, but that is life when pushing boundaries :roll:

If the DIY sheds are selling Phoenix canariensis_CIDP cheaply at bedding dot plant prices, and they get planted by the thousand in your area, you may find one or two, planted by fluke in a favourable microclimate, with survive, and the longer they survive the more established they become and the more harsh weather they can endure. :wink:
Best regards
Dave
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