Hardiness debate losely around Phoenix canariensis

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AndrewBird

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by AndrewBird »

I have read a lot about Phoenix canariensis_CIDP recently. I had bought 2 from wilkinsons, and after mentioning that on here I was advised to return them as they are not hardy. I took them back and got a refund and bought 2 chamerops humilis instead.

I have read that once they are big then then they are a little bit hardier but in a bad winter you must wrap them up or they will die. Lots of people on here had them die, and lots of others had them ruined by the winter. The big palms are too expensive, i think they were £50 and more at the palm centre website. :ahhh!: :ahhh!:

David Brown said that lots of people buy them and plant them out, and some will find the right place to plant them, but most will die. I think after my research that i agree and that this is not a hary palm but once its big can take some snow if they are wrapped up properluy. I would have thought bubble wrap to be perfect but i read that you must not use bubble wrap as it kills the plants. so some people use strawn and fleece. 8)

I decided to buy 4 CIDPS which I am going to plant in randomplaces in my garden to hope i find the perfect place for them icon_cheers icon_cheers icon_cheers icon_cheers
Chalk Brow

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Chalk Brow »

Hi Conifers, and welcome.

Your research into winter temperatures is interesting. I can remember the winter of 1962-63. (I kept a greenhouse full of cacti safely through that winter, without any heating, and that in Pevensey Bay on the East Sussex coast, where we had some of the worst weather. Despite being within less than a couple of hundred yards of the sea the temperatures still plummeted.) I also clearly remember the winters of the 1950s. You are right about the South East being hit hard in a bad winter if the wind is in the east.

The winters now bear now bear no resemblance to the winters of my youth, even since the early 80s there has been a dramatic change. I have moved back a forth between Eastbounre and North Herts since the early 1970s. Plants that would not survive a mild winter in Eastbourne in the 1980s come through a 'hard' winter today. Plants that might come through a bad winter in Eastbourne in the 1970s, would not survive one winter in North Herts in the 1980s. A Cordyline was cut to below ground in 1996 in North Herts , the same plant is now over 10ft tall in my garden in Eastbourne, untouched by any of the winters here since 1997.

One of the biggest differences in recent years is the duration of the cold. Recent winters might have produced overnight sub-zero temperatures, but rarely has that endured through the following day (in Eastbourne). Compare that with the 1950s and 60s, where sub zero temperatures, day and night, could last for weeks. Believe me it was cold back then, and in those days very few people had central heating!

However I have to agree with Dave Brown, that whatever the statistics suggest, and whatever the text books tell us, there is nothing to beat personal experience. According the the text books a number of the plants that are growing quite happily in my garden should not for one reason or another: too dry, too alkaline . . . I take the view that if I really want to grow a plant I will give it a go regardless; as one gardener said “I won't give up until I have killed a plant three times”.

As for CIDPs, there are a number planted along Eastbourne Seafront that have come through certainly all the winters since the late 1990s, although I don't know exactly when they were planted - I will see if I can find out.
Conifers
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Conifers »

Hi Grenville,

Thanks!

I guess my main point is that the "significant change" since the mid-80's is just a reversible blip that won't last; while global warming accounts for part of it, it is not all global warming. To hazard a guess, I'd say there's probably been enough global warming that we won't see another 62-62 style winter, but that more winters like the early to mid '80s are certainly to be expected.

Obviously, one grows what one wants to grow, as long as one is prepared to lose an expensive plant, and are prepared for the costs too (e.g. felling a winterkill Eucalyptus 10 years old and 30 metres tall might cost a few thousand quid!), then fine. But as we are dealing with long-lived plants, personally I'd go with a 30 year minimum (preferably 40 years) of survival before saying something is hardy.
Chalk Brow

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Chalk Brow »

Conifers ~ There is some sense in what you say. I am very sceptical about global warming, there have been variations in climate for as far back as one can project (I will probably get clobbered for that remark). We also used to be told the real changes take a considerable period of time, in the meantime we have all these little ups and downs. As individuals we are only here for a very short time by comparison, so must make the best of it.

What I do believe we can with a reasonable degree of certainty (if anything can be certain about our weather), is that really bad winters occur about every 20 years or so, so (rather than being frightened off planting) the best time for planting borderline hardy plants is in the year following a really bad winter. That way we have the prospect of about 20 years to enjoy them before the next hard winter. Even if the theory doesn't work out in practice, we have lost nothing if we assume we were going to plant anyway.
stephenprudence

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by stephenprudence »

This winter has perhaps one a little way to proving (oddly enough) why we won't see another 1962/1963 or perhaps struggle to see a 1982. I genuinely believe winters like 1990 and 1995 are still possible though. The sun minimum was very notable this year, similar to past event that have resulted in severe cold, 1947 being a notable example. This winter should on paper have been alot colder than it was, the sea surface temperatures around Greenland and around our own coast were colder than usual yet actually compared to winter with similar attributes it was fairly mild. Of course this data would only matter if there are not severe Volcanic eruptions, or Space projectiles which of course would completely reverse any effects of global warming

But we can't rely on one test we need similar tests and alot of them, fortunately it is unlikely this winter will deliver one of these test due to a developing El Nino.
Conifers
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Conifers »

I genuinely believe winters like 1990 and 1995 are still possible though
I remember those as being mild! :lol:

This past winter just gone was a bit of an odd one, in that the temperatures were persistently below average for most of the winter, but never really cold - my lowest here was -5°C, and in most winters, I usually reckon on getting down to -7 or -8 once or twice through the winter. So in terms of the winter minimum, it was actually above average.
stephenprudence

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by stephenprudence »

You're right this winter certainly wasn't too cold, the only thing that made it cooler than the last few was how persistent the cool periods were, it didn't stand out though in terms of extreme cold. It seems here too, like your area, didn't get the full harsh effects of the likes of 1963 or 1982.. I'd definitely say that 1990 was worse that 1982 here :)

Going back to the topic in hand, there are a few sizeable canariensis around here, but theyre also fairly new, maybe up to 10 years old, but generally people here don't give exotic gardening a second thought which might be an explanation to why there aren't many around here - there are certainly more than there were 5 years ago though.

I wouldn't say P. canariensis are hardy here not by a stretch because we just don't get the summer temperatures of their natural climate, or winter temperatures for example.

I imagine the reason P. canariensis are so hardy (to -8C) is because of the rapid temperature drops that happen in the canary Islands straight after dark, I think it's an evolutionary safe mechanism even though the Canary Islands have never gone below 10C! :lol:
toptropics

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by toptropics »

I imagine the reason P. canariensis are so hardy (to -8C) is because of the rapid temperature drops that happen in the canary Islands straight after dark, I think it's an evolutionary safe mechanism even though the Canary Islands have never gone below 10C! :lol:[/quote]

perhaps it is a genetic trait from an ancestral palm which it hasnt lost
Conifers
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Conifers »

perhaps it is a genetic trait from an ancestral palm which it hasnt lost
Be interesting to know what P. dactylifera takes in Morocco - Ouarzazate (south side of the Atlas, at 1100m altitude) has an abs min of -8°C. Checking on google earth & panoramio pics shows Date Palm cultivation there, and a little higher up in the mountain valleys (to at least 1300m, somewhat higher than I thought!), so night frosts of -10 should be within their scope. Of course in the near-desert climate there, it'll still get hot in the daytime between the night frosts.
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Dave Brown
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by Dave Brown »

Conifers wrote:
Of course in the near-desert climate there, it'll still get hot in the daytime between the night frosts.
That is the key factor, dry and warming up after, not absolute cold itself, which is why USDA Zones don't work here. :wink:
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AndrewBird

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by AndrewBird »

Dave Brown wrote:
Conifers wrote:
Of course in the near-desert climate there, it'll still get hot in the daytime between the night frosts.
That is the key factor, dry and warming up after, not absolute cold itself, which is why USDA Zones don't work here. :wink:
If the zones dont work why do people worry about then :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
stephenprudence

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by stephenprudence »

Because knowing you're a zone 9 or 10 is an ego boost.

Let's be honest, If I'm in zone 9a I must have a mild winter climate, take THAT Leeds

(something like that anyway)
irish dave

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by irish dave »

The majority of our winters here are mild, i haven't seen snow here since i was 9,and this winter was the first time i can remember seeing the soil freeze.I think the zone map does give a marker to an areas winter lows.
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eddie
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by eddie »

I've experienced mild winters as well. this year was the coldest in years. Remember in 63 the north sea was covered with ice. But that's a long time ago, we in europe had a little ice age in the 16th 17th century.
Thats why the dutch painters of that ara are so famous for their winter themes... :shock:
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MonkeyDavid
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Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Post by MonkeyDavid »

Here's a theory of mine, what if, say before temperatures was recorded on the Canaries, hundreds or even thousands of years ago, maybe as far as the last ice age, there was a hard frost once in a while, if it couldn't survive it, it would become extinct. Maybe most did die but those that lived passed on their 'hardy' genes which it still carries today. Just a theory mind... :><:
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