Hardiness debate losely around Phoenix canariensis

[photonbucket]

Another inaccurate BBC report...

The "palms" at Plockton, are not palm trees for a start, and the Trachycarpus I saw was further north than this one, even without a hot chimney nearby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tay ... 659301.stm

[Adrian Brattle]

Welcome to the forum Adrian

Where are you getting your information and what is 12C bio-temperature

They survive in my area with the tallest now around 15 to 18 feet. These are not grown by palm enthusiasts, but just ordinary people that grew them from DIY stores small ones. They survive unprotected down to -8C and I think we have found this year -9C is too much, but the main thing seems to be as much airflow as possible and only protect when absolutely necessary They don't mind high humidity, but stagnent air is a real problem

It been tried a number of time in the north east England but failed. We have more regular freeze then Manchester with lower mean annual temperature.

Mean annual bio-temperature is an ecological term for vegetation zone. The Mean annual bio-temperature of 12 degrees C is the dividing line between the warm temperate region and the cool temperate region and is the thresh hold for most warm temperate species. Most warm temperate planes can take cold snaps down to -8 for a short time. But need a minimum mean annual bio-temperature of 12 degrees C to flourish. Newcastle upon Tyne is 9C, London is 11C, Manchester is 10C, east Cornwall 13C, they do not do well in Newcastle and in Aberdeen. western Scotland is 7C to 8C.

For example, coconut palms can take temperatures down to 0C for a very little time but needs a mean annual bio-temperature of 24C to 30C to flourish.

[Henry]

Just had a look at your chart, unfortunately I couldn't see any relation to it and Phoenix canariensis_CIDP at all! No where on it does it show that they won't survive in the north east either! Also when using other peoples data it may be prudent to use a mean of sources. Alot of information on the internet can be incorrect .
Also at what point does it become accepted that they do grow and survive, how many years does it take? Does the large Butia capitata in Cornwall that is 100ish years qualify? There are very cold winters over the years that kill natives, but we don't say that they won't grow or survive in this country.
If you listened to alot of so called experts, alot of the palms in my garden and other members gardens defy THEIR believes, but isn't it good we don't all share the same beliefs!

[Adrian Brattle]

Just had a look at your chart, unfortunately I couldn't see any relation to it and Phoenix canariensis_CIDP at all! No where on it does it show that they won't survive in the north east either! Also when using other peoples data it may be prudent to use a mean of sources. Alot of information on the internet can be incorrect .
Also at what point does it become accepted that they do grow and survive, how many years does it take? Does the large Butia capitata in Cornwall that is 100ish years qualify? There are very cold winters over the years that kill natives, but we don't say that they won't grow or survive in this country.
If you listened to alot of so called experts, alot of the palms in my garden and other members gardens defy THERE believes, but isn't it good we don't all share the same beliefs!

Its just a generalisation chart. All warm temperate plants are not the same. So dose tropical and subtropical plans They all have their mean annual bio-temperature limits. The mean annual bio-temperature is a factor.

[Dave Brown]

Adrian,

I have to agree with Henry, but my entepretation of your chart is..... are we warm temperate or cool temperate? on the whole cool temperate, but Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is a warm to cool temperate palm. Some palms require heat to grow, but Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's natural environment on the northern slopes of the canaries is quite cool in winter with lows no lower than 9C at sea level, but cooler at higher altitudes. Day temps are as low as 12C. Summer temps are around 22C, so this is not a mediterranean palm. It seems to be happy but slower growing 15C and maybe grows it's best at 25C.

But who said it won't grow with mean annual average of less than 12C As far as I am concerned it grows well here in south UK, and providing protected against long term freezes, but uncovered as soon as able, should be ok further north

[Adrian Brattle]

Adrian,

I have to agree with Henry, but my entepretation of your chart is..... are we warm temperate or cool temperate? on the whole cool temperate, but Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is a warm to cool temperate palm. Some palms require heat to grow, but Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's natural environment on the northern slopes of the canaries is quite cool in winter with lows no lower than 9C at sea level, but cooler at higher altitudes. Day temps are as low as 12C. Summer temps are around 22C, so this is not a mediterranean palm. It seems to be happy but slower growing 15C and maybe grows it's best at 25C.

But who said it won't grow with mean annual average of less than 12C As far as I am concerned it grows well here in south UK, and providing protected against long term freezes, but uncovered as soon as able, should be ok further north

Bio-latitudinal region are:

Tropical region: 24C or over
Subtropical region: 12C-24C no frost at all
Warm temperate region: 12C-24C with frost
Cool temperate region: 6C-12C. The UK region.
Boreal region: 3C to 6C
Subpolar region: 1.5C to 3C
Polar region: 1.5 of below

[GARYnNAT]

Dave's motto's on UKO was "dare to be different" and "growing on the edge", we all on this forum push the accepted limits of winter tolerances of plants and indeed the types of plants we grow. If you look in the RHS plant encyclopedia the temperature tolerances of plants quoted bear no relation to what many of us have experienced in practice.
As Dave says Phoenix caneriensis originates as its name suggests from the Canary Islands, which are known as the Islands of eternal spring. Very rarely do summer temperatures reach the highs of the European mainland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city ... t=TT004740

Like Dave I have seen Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's thriving at reasonably high elevations as you venture into the islands interior where nighttime temps can dip far more than on the coast.

By no means can Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's be considered fully hardy in the UK but given a reasonable sized plant to begin with and a not to exposed position, in warmer parts of the UK it at least has a fighting chance

Gary

[Adrian Brattle]

Dave's motto's on UKO was "dare to be different" and "growing on the edge", we all on this forum push the accepted limits of winter tolerances of plants and indeed the types of plants we grow. If you look in the RHS plant encyclopedia the temperature tolerances of plants quoted bear no relation to what many of us have experienced in practice.
As Dave says Phoenix caneriensis originates as its name suggests from the Canary Islands, which are known as the Islands of eternal spring. Very rarely do summer temperatures reach the highs of the European mainland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city ... t=TT004740

Like Dave I have seen Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's thriving at reasonably high elevations as you venture into the islands interior where nighttime temps can dip far more than on the coast.

By no means can Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's be considered fully hardy in the UK but given a reasonable sized plant to begin with and a not to exposed position, in warmer parts of the UK it at least has a fighting chance

Gary

Las Palmas, Spain as a mean annual bio-temperature 20.45 with no frost. So it’s in the subtropical region.

[GARYnNAT]

Adrian no disrespect but I am talking real practical experience here not figures on a page, I have no doubt that the figure you quote are correct however I have 2 Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's in my garden that have been there for some time, the large one is now in its 4th year outside and the small one Nat has just worked out for its 7th.
My small one came from a local garden centre long before B&Q etc started to sell them, it was a similar size to the ones they sell for around £20 but unlike those that are force grown in some dutch greenhouses it has much shorted fronds. As i said it has been outside for 6 winters, i do not have an up to date pic of it (will take one today if it stops raining) but it looks exactly the same as the pic from September.
My point about the Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's in the canaries was that these plants do not need hugely high summer temps to grow well, given a good size plant in a sheltered spot as i said they have a fighting chance. I think that the photographic evidence in this thread gives credence to my point!
As i said i do not doubt your figures but they are just that figures, and just a general guideline.
We all grow Trachycarpus and consider it bone hardy but if you read the threads on the EPS forum many in Holland have suffered terribly this winter!!! We push the boundaries on this forum and despite your chart giving us no chance some of us are having a modicum of success..... how long it lasts who knows but lets enjoy the plants while we can

Gary

[Adrian Brattle]

Adrian,

I have to agree with Henry, but my entepretation of your chart is..... are we warm temperate or cool temperate? on the whole cool temperate, but Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is a warm to cool temperate palm. Some palms require heat to grow, but Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's natural environment on the northern slopes of the canaries is quite cool in winter with lows no lower than 9C at sea level, but cooler at higher altitudes. Day temps are as low as 12C. Summer temps are around 22C, so this is not a mediterranean palm. It seems to be happy but slower growing 15C and maybe grows it's best at 25C.

dave,

But who said it won't grow with mean annual average of less than 12C As far as I am concerned it grows well here in south UK, and providing protected against long term freezes, but uncovered as soon as able, should be ok further north

In our latitudinal region the difference in avenge mean temperature of between 11C and 9C means a shorter growing season, more prolonged frost. This in turn affects the ability to recover from freezing cold winter.

[GARYnNAT]

Adrian you are missing the point, you need to forget the figures and look at the bigger picture and more importantly the individual plants and their location. Any set of figures like these are at best a guideline, look at something like football how many times do so called experts get things wrong, the figures might show that team A should easily beat team B but it don't always happen. if you read the figures house prices fell by almost 20% in the UK last year..... not in cambridge they didn't, they rose by 3% due to the local conditions of the City being surrounded by green belt, lots of Hi tech businesses linked to the university a shortage of housing coupled with hi demand.
Check out Nathans pics of his garden in Southsea, Hampshire, most winters he does not see temps below 0c and even this year his lows were only -2c, he grows plants oudoors all year many of us would consider house plants..... were does he fit into your chart???

Gary

[Adrian Brattle]

Adrian you are missing the point, you need to forget the figures and look at the bigger picture and more importantly the individual plants and their location. Any set of figures like these are at best a guideline, look at something like football how many times do so called experts get things wrong, the figures might show that team A should easily beat team B but it don't always happen. if you read the figures house prices fell by almost 20% in the UK last year..... not in cambridge they didn't, they rose by 3% due to the local conditions of the City being surrounded by green belt, lots of Hi tech businesses linked to the university a shortage of housing coupled with hi demand.
Check out Nathans pics of his garden in Southsea, Hampshire, most winters he does not see temps below 0c and even this year his lows were only -2c, he grows plants oudoors all year many of us would consider house plants..... were does he fit into your chart???

Gary

I expected southsea to be doing well with a longer growing season and less frost compared to Newcastle upon Tyne.
Southsea. Mean Temp 11.5C.
Newcastle upon Tyne. Mean temp 9C.

[Gaz]

Have to agree with Gary here. Forget what the books say and go with real experiences.

There are plenty of plants that the reference books will give a tolerance of X degrees but people on here are growing and surviving much lower.

Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is a quick grower, so even if they suffer some leaf burn over winter they quickly pull though. Our larger one suffered no leaf burn last winter at all, and only leaf burn on the older outer fronds this winter. I'm expecting it to look fine by the summer.

Maybe it all depends on your definition of thriving, but there are some stunning examples on mainland UK (and even better ones on the Scillies). The Southsea ones are well known, but there are big council planted specimens in London. As well as some stunning examples in peoples gardens on this site.

This winter has been a harsh one, and maybe some of the smaller plants will have suffered.

At the end of the day people on here are trying to grow plants that many others will say - "You cant grow that", the further away from the southwest or the heat island of London the more effort a member will have to put into the location/micro-climate and extra winter protection.

As with any plants you need to find what works for you. What else are you growing Adrian?

[Adrian Brattle]

Have to agree with Gary here. Forget what the books say and go with real experiences.

There are plenty of plants that the reference books will give a tolerance of X degrees but people on here are growing and surviving much lower.

Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is a quick grower, so even if they suffer some leaf burn over winter they quickly pull though. Our larger one suffered no leaf burn last winter at all, and only leaf burn on the older outer fronds this winter. I'm expecting it to look fine by the summer.

Maybe it all depends on your definition of thriving, but there are some stunning examples on mainland UK (and even better ones on the Scillies). The Southsea ones are well known, but there are big council planted specimens in London. As well as some stunning examples in peoples gardens on this site.

This winter has been a harsh one, and maybe some of the smaller plants will have suffered.

At the end of the day people on here are trying to grow plants that many others will say - "You cant grow that", the further away from the southwest or the heat island of London the more effort a member will have to put into the location/micro-climate and extra winter protection.

What i mean buy thriving is all size grow well with out winter help even plants that is one foot tall. Prolonged frost is more of a killer then minimum lows such as -8C. im taking other things in to consideration. proloenged frost is more of a problem in north east england and in scotland then in the south of England.

[Gaz]

It all depends on location.

But the fact remains that some members do well with them and some don't.

If you find that they wont grow well for you as a small plant, then consider getting a larger plant or giving it a helping hand in winter. If you only want plants that are totally guaranteed hardy, with no winter effort then maybe a tropical garden is the wrong gardening style for you?