Hardiness debate losely around Phoenix canariensis

[Jellybob]

How do Adrian, joining in the fun of this kind of gardening? It would seem you are looking to use a text book approach to make a point. The guys who have replied to you, and I know none of them, have stated several times that you can't just go by the numbers. For example, I have read that the queen palm, and it is no way hardy, needs a min temp of 18c to survive! I saw a 'which report on hardy gardening and in the trials that they did they concluded that most plants, including Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's should be dug up and place inside for the winter!! If you did this, you would get no growth and it would surly die. My biggest Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, and it ain't that big, gets no winter sun through dec and jan. We had that awful weather and only the outer fronds are burnt. I'm sure it will look great come summer as it will be it's third year. I have said before that I have seen large Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's and washingtonia growing in the south-east. It takes time, luck and pig headed belief that the UK weather will not beat you! And once you see one in someone's garden, like the nice man on the telly say's: 'I want that one'.

[JonK]

The problem with your argument Adrian, is that your text book figures are based upon averages over a large area. When it comes down to growing 'tender' plants, some peoples gardens and microclimates can be several degrees warmer in winter and summer than the surrounding area thus allowing Phoenix canariensis_CIDP and other plants to be succesfully grown which you normally couldn't consider.

Jon

[Tom_Hereford]

I`m not quite sure what Adrians point is, other than Phoenix canariensis_CIDP can`t grow in the North-East? Which is a little optimisticly over generalised, how do you know? Figures on a page don`t relate to real time experiences and variables of a particular environment, e.g got a cold garden? Then cut down the wind, raised patios and brick walls aka victorians gardens to store the suns warmth etc etc. If we all gave in because of figures we probably wouldnt bother at all, but it`s all about trying and the past 20 years have been favourable to exotics in the UK. Please, don`t quote figurs, get out and try....
In Herefordshire(not Hertfordshire!) I`ve been growing Phoenix canariensis_CIDP for over 10 years and with brilliant results, see! I`m not in London or the south-east

[stephenprudence]

The Northeast of England has the coolest climate in the England so it's not surprising you are having difficulty growing them there. To really appreciate how hardy Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is you have to live in an area which is much milder. I have no doubt that coastal areas in the west have no problem 90% of the time, some may be brought down due to rot, but on the whole, it's very unlikely.

I don't think you necessarily have to have a average yearly temperature above 12C, for example on the Atlas mountains they may have an average yearly temperature of 10C but they can still grow Phoenix species palms on there.

So I'm not sure I agree with you, many areas around here have very healthy sized Phoenix canariensis specimens, up to 10-15 feet tall in all.

[Adrian Brattle]

The Northeast of England has the coolest climate in the England so it's not surprising you are having difficulty growing them there. To really appreciate how hardy Phoenix canariensis_CIDP is you have to live in an area which is much milder. I have no doubt that coastal areas in the west have no problem 90% of the time, some may be brought down due to rot, but on the whole, it's very unlikely.

I don't think you necessarily have to have a average yearly temperature above 12C, for example on the Atlas mountains they may have an average yearly temperature of 10C but they can still grow Phoenix species palms on there.

So I'm not sure I agree with you, many areas around here have very healthy sized Phoenix canariensis specimens, up to 10-15 feet tall in all.

The bigger thay are the more Adaptable they are to cooler climates

[Las Palmas Norte]

I thought I'd throw this in for comparison sake.
A Phoenix canariensis_CIDP planted in the best micro-climate at Grace Point on Salt Spring Island (British Columbia) died a slow miserable death over the course of about 5 years, perhaps a little longer, each winter looking worse than previous. This region never saw temps below -6° centigrade (even then, breifly), and has an average annual rainfall of about 28", mainly falling in the late autumn and early winter.
Seems similar to many successful situations of Phoenix canariensis_CIDP discribed around England. It was regularly tended and never allowed to be stressed. I wonder why the Salt Spring Island palm died in virtually the same conditions?
(sorry - carry on)

Cheers, Barrie.

[Nigel Fear]

Hi Adrian, have you had attempted to grow any other palms beside Phoenx Canariensis?
It would be a shame if your bad experience with this species has put you off having another go at it or trying another type of more hardy palm.

[col]

Rollocks to the science (either factual or pseudo-babble) - even if you live in Nuuk, never mind Newcastle, - get a Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, find the kindest spot in your garden and plant the darn thing up. Treat it well and see how you go on.

Thats the essence of gardening with 'exotics' - nothing motivates us more than someone telling us its not possible..........

Col

[Adrian Brattle]

Hi Adrian, have you had attempted to grow any other palms beside Phoenx Canariensis?
It would be a shame if your bad experience with this species has put you off having another go at it or trying another type of more hardy palm.

Newcastle city council has plant some much hardier palm year ago. All Trachycarpus Fortunei in Newcastle is doing fine.

[Dave Brown]

Adrian, you are coming from the opposite direction to me. If someone says it won't grow, I grow it just to prove a point. Ok, they say coconuts woon't grow here and having tried I belived them, but we are now up to around 20 species of palms that are hardy in many parts of the country, When I started looking for palms in 1970 no-one stocked any "as they would not grow in England".

I have a Monstera delicoisa (Swiss Cheese Plant) planted out in my unheated covered bit which has been down to -4C this winter. It has no damage at all and the fruit from last year's flower is still fattening up. If you read the RHS plant finder these are down as requiring 15C.... some 19C warmer than mine got

If you are hoping to find plants on here to backup your book's theories you won't find many.

Below, my Phoenix canariensis_CIDP on 31st Jan even the small ones in pots have had no protection, but I buy small and grow cold, no molly coddling, as that produces weak growth damaged in colder winters. If you really want a super tough Phoenix canariensis_CIDP you have to grow it yourself, and be patient. but off course first you have to stop reading "sub tropical plant.... must have sub tropical climate"

[palmking]

Most of the plants I grow come from Warm temperature or sub tropical regions. So if i subtract them from my garden, I would have almost nothing left growing.

MY annual mean temperature(Bio temp), as you put it is closer to 11 than 10. My overnight temperatures are consistently around +1C higher than the manchester met averages. These are taken from a weather station parked in a frost pocket , at an airbase and these discrepancies are shared throughout the hardy tropical community.

So in effect you could say my climate is bordering on Warm temperate by your scientific data.

Don't take this the wrong way but it wasn't the best introduction in the world. Your comments will be perceived out of context and i'm sure everyone would just love to help you if you have a true desire to grow the 'ungrowable'.

Me and stephen and a few others in Warrington etc in the North West have collectively had some of the mildest temperatures in the country this winter. My minimum temperatures have been similar to those for the past 4 or 5 years.
What have your lows been this winter?

It would give us a chance to calculate just what you can grow.

Best regards, paul

[Dave in Warrington]

Me and stephen and a few others in Warrington etc in the North West have collectively had some of the mildest temperatures in the country this winter.

I agree, they won't flourish but we give them a sporting chance. We haven't the latitude for high sun and we get cold damp all year round. This winter may be a short one and dry too. I had more trouble last summer ....we didn't have one and got rot issues.

[stephenprudence]

Yes I agree with much of what has been said, I did lose a Phoenix canariensis_CIDP but it turns out it was grown in a warm heated place, and was quite small so it didn't react well to the winter, but that was due to a cold introduction. I think if at first you gradually introduced them to colder weather they will harden off to their true hardiness levels. Dave B makes a great point, many of the Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's we have around here are planted as practically embriotic babies, but they've all survived and they look happy.

Like Paul says, here we have gotten away with some of the warmer temperatures this winter, whilst we have -5 to -6C here most of the other times, the temperatures have been around or just above 0C at night, and that makes the average temperature year round in the low-mid 11C range here. I'm not sure I would personally go along with the idea that warm temperature areas are as low down as 12C (although it may well be based on scientific theory, I just don't agree with it). I think the Azores Islands for example are called as warm temperate (not subtropical) I think personally I would class the whole of the UK is cool temperate (even the Isles of Scilly)

Here are a few things I grow without/with minimal protection in winter which are not meant to grow/survive here according to sources but do not sustain any damage, even from this winter..

- Rhododendron simsii (houseplant azalea/Indian azalea)
- Schlubergera x buckleyii (Christmas cactus)
- Strelitzia reginae (Bird of Paradise)
- Bougainvillea
- Yucca elephantipes
- Chamaedorea elegans

I plan on planting out a Schefflera arboricola (Umbrella plant) this summer, and leave it out over winter.

The moral of all this Adrian is that you should drop any pre-conceived ideas about what your expectations, or expectations of those without experience are and just go for it, because at the end of the day that's what this game is all about, trying new things, taking risks. Yes I'll moan annoyingly when the first potential frost is due each winter, but hey thats part of the fun and risk of growing this.

Read around some of the posts on here and you'll realise a whole new world is open for you, so follow us and give it a go!

[palmking]

Yes I agree with much of what has been said, I did lose a Phoenix canariensis_CIDP but it turns out it was grown in a warm heated place, and was quite small so it didn't react well to the winter, but that was due to a cold introduction. I think if at first you gradually introduced them to colder weather they will harden off to their true hardiness levels. Dave B makes a great point, many of the Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's we have around here are planted as practically embriotic babies, but they've all survived and they look happy.

Like Paul says, here we have gotten away with some of the warmer temperatures this winter, whilst we have -5 to -6C here most of the other times, the temperatures have been around or just above 0C at night, and that makes the average temperature year round in the low-mid 11C range here. I'm not sure I would personally go along with the idea that warm temperature areas are as low down as 12C (although it may well be based on scientific theory, I just don't agree with it). I think the Azores Islands for example are called as warm temperate (not subtropical) I think personally I would class the whole of the UK is cool temperate (even the Isles of Scilly)

Here are a few things I grow without/with minimal protection in winter which are not meant to grow/survive here according to sources but do not sustain any damage, even from this winter..

- Rhododendron simsii (houseplant azalea/Indian azalea)
- Schlubergera x buckleyii (Christmas cactus)
- Strelitzia reginae (Bird of Paradise)
- Bougainvillea
- Yucca elephantipes
- Chamaedorea elegans

I plan on planting out a Schefflera arboricola (Umbrella plant) this summer, and leave it out over winter.

The moral of all this Adrian is that you should drop any pre-conceived ideas about what your expectations, or expectations of those without experience are and just go for it, because at the end of the day that's what this game is all about, trying new things, taking risks. Yes I'll moan annoyingly when the first potential frost is due each winter, but hey thats part of the fun and risk of growing this.

Read around some of the posts on here and you'll realise a whole new world is open for you, so follow us and give it a go!

Well put! -Oh yes, do put that Schefflera out -I'm dying to sneak the one my girlfriend has languishing on her landing and the huge Yucca Elephantipes and the two large Aloe ferox, she's left without soil plonked in pots in her living room!

PS -Stephen! Take a trip to easy Tropicals outside of Macclesfield. It's by appointment only but they have some great and dirt cheap Bougies for sale -They're not on their website or plant list - I'm going in a couple of weeks so i'll let you know if they've any in-They've some great citrus lemons and orange trees there , probably 7 foot tall as well!

Paul

[pete G]

Wish I knew how you lot do it?

I've killed two CIDPs now here in the southeast, the first seed grown and pretty large when finally planted out and the second smallish but not happy for three years before dieing this year.

Now I've not seen any isolated plants growing anywhere around here, most are in smallish confined gardens often close to buildings, other plantings or coastal.

I need convincing they are hardy to any extent.

I think a couple should be planted in a field, totally isolated and see how long they last.