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Hardiness debate losely around Phoenix canariensis

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:38 pm
by Adrian Brattle
This is my understanding.
Phoenix canariensis cannot flourish in cool temperate region with maritime influence. My reasons are:

1. Wet freeze my injure the crown.

2. Maritime climates with mean annual bio-temperature below 12 degrees C will allow fungus to attack the injured crown after winter as past.

I’m from north east England. The mean annual bio-temperature here is only 9 degrees C. With wet freeze in winter this palm cannot survive here. It is the fungal attack that will kill it. icon_study

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:52 pm
by Gaz
Hi Adrian, welcome on board!

I think you will find many people on here will disagree with you on this one, as there are many members who have been sucessful with these over a number of years. Having said that I guess the fact does remain that a real winter (one more serious than what we have had even this year) could see even the bigger ones off. However its all about pushing the boundaries of what we can grow!

Check out the pictures at Southsea (Portsmouth)

Our Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's have both fared quite well. We have had -8 this year and nearly 2 weeks under snow. The larger planted one was trussed up and is still pushing out spears. The smaller one in a pot also still looks good. I know i may well be counting my chickens too soon but im reasonably happy they have both made it though this poor winter, after all its been the worst in 20 years so statistically we shouldnt exepct worse than this for some time.

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:54 pm
by photonbucket
We've just had the harshest winter in 18 years and mine CIDPs are fine; even the babies that I didnt protect.

Even my baby Washys are fine. (Only 18 inches tall and with only slight damage).

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:07 pm
by palmking
I don't usually react negatively but those facts are a little skewed.

Fact is my P.Canariensis never get wet rot and they've been out for 5 years now with little damage.In fact, the only things that ever got any sort of fungal attack was an oleander and a Washingtonia Filifera but that was due to other factors. Though if you bubble wrap the crown or some other form of protection which allows humid conditions to persist with little aeration, then any palm or plant will succumb to fungal attack.

There's much you can do and I suspect if you've got a problem like that , then you need to look at where you're planting them and whether you've modified the soil.

Minimums lows here were -5.5c. It might be true of the North east but much of the rest of the country manages to grow these palms without too many problems.

Fact is, I just checked today on several 7 foot high and wide Phoenix canariensis_CIDP in Manchester city centre and they're untouched by a winter low of -4C and unprotected too and that's in the 'rainy city' !

Many years of observations of spring recovery in palms here would show a distinctly different result , so long as the plants are planted in the right microclimates.

It is more likely that the incessant Wind in your area of the country and the exposure to North Easterlies, coupled with low temperatures and high humidity is a significant contributory factor to your experiences and understanding.

Paul.

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:11 pm
by Adrian Brattle
you will not know the damage until late spring. southsea is just on borderline of 12 degree C mean annual bio-temperature.

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:29 pm
by GARYnNAT
I have 2 planted out the largest one i have just trimmed the leaves off ready to dig up but has come through the winter with -6.9 the low unmarked as has a smaller one that has been in the ground for 5 years unprotected.

The smaller one
garden sept 08 016.jpg
And the big one
garden sept 08 050.jpg
Gary

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:30 pm
by Adrian Brattle
In Sunderland you find 2, 7 foot Phoenix canariensis_CIDP in big pots which they bring in during the night time freeze.

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:34 pm
by irish dave
Here is one that was planted in 1960 just outside cork city ireland.And i dont think anyone gets more rain than us.And over that period we have had very cold winters to.But here you are a full growen Phoenix canariensis_CIDP icon_sunny

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:35 pm
by TOP BANANA
There not doing too bad in North Wales in my stepdads garden , i planted this one in 1999.
n.wales 026.jpg
its had no protection in all these years.

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:44 pm
by irish dave
If you plant them,they will grow
February 14 - Limerick - 2009 003.jpg
icon_cheers

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:51 pm
by photonbucket
I have seen the odd fatality around the neighbourhood, but 99% of the baby Phoenix canariensis_CIDP's people buy in B&Q and the like, seem to survive easily.

As I drove around tonight, I saw loads of £4.99 jobs looking perfectly happy. My big one has been out 3 winters and I have 4 babies that are all looking fine and have already survived at least one. -5.6c last year and -6 this year.

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:53 pm
by photonbucket
photonbucket wrote:My big one has been out 3 winters and I have 4 babies that are all looking fine and have already survived at least one.
Don't read this out of context, I'd hate to be anything but modest! :ahhh!:

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:55 pm
by Nigel Fear
I wonder who has the most northerly grown phoenix canariensis?
By that I mean still ouside fleeced or otherwise.

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:06 pm
by Dave Brown
Welcome to the forum Adrian icon_salut

Where are you getting your information :?: and what is 12C bio-temperature :?:

They survive in my area with the tallest now around 15 to 18 feet. These are not grown by palm enthusiasts, but just ordinary people that grew them from DIY stores small ones. They survive unprotected down to -8C and I think we have found this year -9C is too much, but the main thing seems to be as much airflow as possible and only protect when absolutely necessary :wink: They don't mind high humidity, but stagnent air is a real problem :wink:

Re: Phoenix canariensis in cool temperate regions

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:29 pm
by photonbucket
Im sure they can be found further north than this, but I saw a perfectly happy Trachycarpus in Malliag on the north-west coast of Scotland. Looked better than mine!!

I wonder if these people have ever tried a Phoenix outside...

http://www.aboutscotland.co.uk/land/inverewe.html