A debate

[jcec1]

I agree that south coast has had the better of things recently, and the huge CIDPs, Butias, and in some cases Washingtonias are a testament to that, however, part of Northern England and North Wales can in some cases rival the south coast for speciments grown - it's just that the north isn't seen as a holiday destination so public plantings are sparse...

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but where is the Northernmost mature Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP i.e. one that has trunked and not just recently planted? I haven't seen any other than the south coast or London.

Hard to say, possibly in Western Scotland or Northern Ireland, however there doesn't appear to be any documentation in terms of photos. There is however sufficient documentation of Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, Washingtonia and Yucca elephantipes growing outside in the Wirral peninsula at at least three locations, so this is the furthest north documented by evidence, that I have seen to date. Also there are numerous Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, and Yucca elepantipes growing in Llandudno.

The Wirral may be the most Northerly limit of Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, I've not seen any on the West Coast of Scotland, nor in Northern Ireland e.g. Mount Stewart Gardens or the Antrim or Down coastal towns. Do you have the links to the Wirral Phoenix canariensis_CIDP threads?

[Blairs]

That said many plants grown in locations like that, but it's only relatively recently people have realised what can be grown up this way (due to being told you can't because you're in the north). The specimens on the south coast have been there for much longer, and are therefore bigger to start with.

That is a good point. More tropical plants are found in the SE and SW England as they have been more freely available for a longer time than anywhere else in the UK. Ergo more are now seen there. It may be that it is not a hardier region, just that more of them are sold and by sheer numbers appear to thrive better. We know Schefflera and Cordylines do well up to NW Scotland, various palms do well in wet, windy Cornwall for example.

[cordyman]

You can't deny that when it's a cold winter it's usually worse up north and lasts longer up north. Due to latitude spring also arrives earlier down south so things start growing earlier and therefore the growing season is longer down south. Following on from this slower growing plants e.g. palms develop quicker down south.

I'm only basing this assumption on my time on HTUK, before exotics I didn't really follow the seasons, so bear that in mind.

The last 3 years in general it always seems the north has had a better start to the year, with warmer Springs and lots more sunshine.

The consensus down south from lots of members is biting winds, cloudy, overcast and downright cold

[Blairs]

[The Wirral may be the most Northerly limit of Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, I've not seen any on the West Coast of Scotland, nor in Northern Ireland e.g. Mount Stewart Gardens or the Antrim or Down coastal towns. Do you have the links tonthe Wirral Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP threads?

Apart from the ones in Logan Botanic Gardens in Galloway Scotland? It is not just Chusan plams.

[stephenprudence]

The Wirral may be the most Northerly limit of Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, I've not seen any on the West Coast of Scotland, nor in Northern Ireland e.g. Mount Stewart Gardens or the Antrim or Down coastal towns. Do you have the links to the Wirral Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP threads?

Here's a thread that rounds it up nicely, Ill try and find some others too.

http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/v ... al#p401048

From just after 2010

http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/v ... al#p319925

also in Llandudno

http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/v ... no#p397924

[stephenprudence]

[The Wirral may be the most Northerly limit of Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, I've not seen any on the West Coast of Scotland, nor in Northern Ireland e.g. Mount Stewart Gardens or the Antrim or Down coastal towns. Do you have the links tonthe Wirral Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP threads?

Apart from the ones in Logan Botanic Gardens in Galloway Scotland? It is not just Chusan plams.

Are there any photos of CIDPs at Logan Botanic Gardens? I searched but couldn't find any. Looking at the Cordylines and Dicksonia antarctica there, I have no doubt Phoenix canariensis_CIDP could grow there, but I would like to see some photos.

[jcec1]

[The Wirral may be the most Northerly limit of Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, I've not seen any on the West Coast of Scotland, nor in Northern Ireland e.g. Mount Stewart Gardens or the Antrim or Down coastal towns. Do you have the links tonthe Wirral Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP threads?

Apart from the ones in Logan Botanic Gardens in Galloway Scotland? It is not just Chusan plams.

My memory must be fading me as I don't recall seeing any there a few years ago. I checked their website and there is a fleeting glance of one on their video 27 secs in, it's hard to judge how big it is though.
http://www.rbge.org.uk/the-gardens/logan
Do you have any pics?

[jcec1]

The Wirral may be the most Northerly limit of Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, I've not seen any on the West Coast of Scotland, nor in Northern Ireland e.g. Mount Stewart Gardens or the Antrim or Down coastal towns. Do you have the links to the Wirral Phoenix canariensis_Phoenix canariensis_CIDP threads?

Here's a thread that rounds it up nicely, Ill try and find some others too.

http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/v ... al#p401048

From just after 2010

http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/v ... al#p319925

also in Llandudno

http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/v ... no#p397924

Thanks Stephen, I wonder if they were all planted when places like B&Q first started selling them? There are certainly loads round here which have been.

[stephenprudence]

Most likely, I can say these have planted before 2010 with no doubt, I used to visit the New Brighton ones back in 2009 and the West Kirby ones have always been a contentious issue (who would clean up the mess when the walls collapse )

Around here that's what people tend to do, buy specimens from B&Q and then forget about them.

A B&Q one has been planted in our town recently, I have my eye on it, it's in a part of town where Lampranthus and Carpobrotus grows (too) happily, so it'll be interesting to see what happened. It's tiny at the moment though.

[Yorkshire Kris]

You can't deny that when it's a cold winter it's usually worse up north and lasts longer up north. Due to latitude spring also arrives earlier down south so things start growing earlier and therefore the growing season is longer down south. Following on from this slower growing plants e.g. palms develop quicker down south.

I'm only basing this assumption on my time on HTUK, before exotics I didn't really follow the seasons, so bear that in mind.

The last 3 years in general it always seems the north has had a better start to the year, with warmer Springs and lots more sunshine.

The consensus down south from lots of members is biting winds, cloudy, overcast and downright cold

Signs of spring, ( e.g. buds breaking on the trees, bulbs flowering, butterflies on the wing) start first in the south and roughly moves northwards at walking pace towards Scotland, arriving 8 weeks later. This therefore means growing conditions for many plants start earlier in the year down south and less time for growth up north.

[cheshirepalms]

It certainly makes me more determined to succeed when I here people say things can't be grown up here and they are only short term prospects. My main aim in my garden is to grow a Canary Island date palm to a good size and lay claim to have away from the coast, and doubts only fuels my ambition.

[Blairs]

Signs of spring, ( e.g. buds breaking on the trees, bulbs flowering, butterflies on the wing) start first in the south and roughly moves northwards at walking pace towards Scotland, arriving 8 weeks later. This therefore means growing conditions for many plants start earlier in the year down south and less time for growth up north.

When I regularly flew down to London for work spring plants like Forsythia and Kerria would be in flower 2-3 weeks ahead of me. My japanese cherry normally flowers late April/May. Again 2 weeks behind London. Spring temperatures and late frosts make the difference as I will have longer daylight given the 550 miles north, though always lower temps.

[doncasterpalmguy123]

It certainly makes me more determined to succeed when I here people say things can't be grown up here and they are only short term prospects. My main aim in my garden is to grow a Canary Island date palm to a good size and lay claim to have away from the coast, and doubts only fuels my ambition.

Yes i don't know if you remember but i stood up for you in a sense as many people who i can only assume were from a more southernly latitude was saying you might as well dig it up. When i did i was bombarded with replies saying how impossible it is for them to grow up here and how i was the one being rude (when it was the other way round really). I too have a Phoenix canariensis_CIDP up north and i have the same prospects, never let the masses suppress you! Hope your palm grows big and mighty.

[ConcreteJungle]

This thread is good news to me.. (a novice!)

[RogerBacardy]

The higher your latitude, the lower the angle which the Sun's rays illuminate your garden. So the nearer the equator you are the more sunshine you will get.

However, coaster areas will get a maritime influence (lower summer maximum temps, but higher winter minimum temps), and the West will get the greatest effect of the Gulf Stream.

Add to that your own microclimate, urban heat island effect, overhead evergreen canopies, degree of slope to the South, proximity to walls and buildings, etc and you can see there are a lot of variables.

Up to you to make your own up about which advice to ignore or follow. Personally, I listen to the advice of people who have been doing this a long time. Dave Brown, Arlon, Greville, BIlldango, etc.. People with years of experience and wisdom.

Some people here give out advice like they're horticultural experts or professional meteorologists. Lost count of the number of times I've been called foolish for not protecting palms by these 'experts'. However, when I look out into my garden I am happy with the abundance of exotic looking plants I have out there, and feel my own 15 or so years of experience have taught me much and vindicated my approach to plant protection.


If people say you can't grow something and you disagree, prove them wrong. Show the photos of your plants thriving in your location.