Wrapping v Drapeing

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This area is for Reference and discussion of plant hardiness, overwintering methods and tips, and planr protection.
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sanatic1234
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by sanatic1234 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:25 pm

So say we have -9c to say -12c at worst all winter and you put the 6-8 bottles outside with nearing boiling water inside. what increase in celsius of temperature would you be looking at achieving with using this method?
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Darlo Mark
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by Darlo Mark » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:18 pm

I doubt it would work like that San, I think it stops the cooling down.
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by sanatic1234 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:34 pm

:? I can't wait to see the results of this experiment next year to see if this actually does work. :)
Best regards Aaron :)

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flounder
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by flounder » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:16 pm

I'm sure I read somewhere, hot water freezes quicker than cold water......but thats exposed to the elements
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by Tom2006 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:17 pm

I don't think its going to be very scientific but every little helps. Even if it prevents the temp. Dropping by a degree its worth it.
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Arlon Tishmarsh
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by Arlon Tishmarsh » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:27 pm

GoggleboxUK wrote:Taking that theory on a bit further, surely it would make sense to go for a fleeced pyramid or wigwam type shelter using 3 or 4 bamboo canes staked into the ground before the freezes occur?
I use pullcorded fleece bags but i put 4 canes around the plant and pull the cord tight to the canes not the plant leaving the underside open. That way, as Dave says, heat from the ground rises up and in.

One thing i learnt the hard way is not to pull the cord tight to the trunks. I did that with a couple of trunked cordies and all the water / melting frost 'n' ice simply ran down the outside of the bag and rotted the trunk at that point. They've all reshooted tho thankfully.


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Darlo Mark
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by Darlo Mark » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:30 pm

This thread is really good and giving me lots of good advice!
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billdango
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by billdango » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:33 pm

I think thats a great idea?as this winter i will have some rubber hot water bottles ready to tie around the growing point on my Syagrus Romanzoffianum then i will wrap them in fleece .
This i will do if the temperature is going to drop below about-2c which in a normal Southampton winter[last dec excepted] rarely occur.
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kata
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by kata » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:45 pm

I also used pull cord fleece bags last year,

I only got the yellow leaves not a death. They hav'nt really 'greened up' over the summer. I have a flush on both Revolutas which I hope don't go yellow.

I think for me the same idea.....bags in triplicate on each palm. Important is how to protect the new Trachi top? I am going to use a very thick cardboard around the base, then lift the palm into a fleece bag.

I can also wind fleece around the stem...that leaves the top open. Where I could gather up the fronds on a revoluta I can't do that with Trachis.

My supplier mentioned tealight, not so sure about those.
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by Yorkshire Kris » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:14 pm

I think we're missing the point here about the water bottles. Their main use is to provide thermal mass that stops the plants close by from freezing. The water doesn't need to by very hot it just needs to stay liquid. As long as the bottles are not frozen then the plants wont freeze. So yes using hot water would cool down very quickly but they would then take a long time to freeze through. Hopefully they wouldn't freeze through until the morning when they can be replaced before the next freeze.


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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by Dave Brown » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:09 pm

Obviously protection is plant dependent. ie a mature, established Trachycarpus will survive -12 to -15C, a similar Chamarops -10C, a similar Washingtonia -6C

I have wrapped Phoenix canariensis_CIDP, and those wrapped spear pulled and died while those I just left unprotected survived in the same winter. The number of times I've heard people say "such and such down the road knows nothing about exotics, and theirs survived, but mine didn't". The difference very often was wrapping, stopping airflow, and as Arlon said cutting off the warming ground air.

If you get -18C it is going to take a lot of protection what ever you do, having the ground warmth on your side may give you a few more hours, or days before the plant freezes.

Water bottles will prevent freezing for a long while after it feels cold to us. also if the bottle is stood on the ground it will absorb the ground heat delaying freezing further.

Covering whole beds and borders will be the way to go for me :wink: .... tried wrapping, lost some things when wrapped and others nearby died as unprotected, been there done that, not overly impressed with results. To that end I've been researching crop fleece and found it can be up to 16m wide. and a 1000m long :lol: I'm looking at canes with the ball fixer ends to build a framework to support the fleece. Even quite large palms can be fleeced using fleece wide enough, tying stones into the corners, and throwing over the top.

This topic was intended to be a more technical discussion about the advantages/disadvantages of wrapping v draping, rather than just "this is what I do"

So what are the results :?: IMO wrapping is normally 2 or 3 layers of fleece wrapped around a plant, but as it allows the ground warmth up around the outside you are relying on the thermal mass of the plant, once this has cooled down the plant freezes. Draping can be one or many layers, but traps all available ground warmth. As the ground has much more thermal mass than the plant, it would take worse conditions (much colder or much longer) for the plant to freeze. :wink:
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Tom2006
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by Tom2006 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:18 pm

What about building a basic wooden frame and drapeing a large duvet over the top?
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by sanatic1234 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:24 pm

when you drape the fleece over the plant though do you have to keep some kind of gap between the ground and the fleece to let the air through?
Best regards Aaron :)

Summer 2013 was a good one :-).

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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by GoggleboxUK » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:21 pm

Dave, I'm with you entirely on the airflow. I think it's definitely a cause of rotting.

I also dislike wrapping because it stifles light. The whole point of protecting a plant is because it doesn't go dormant. If it isn't dormant then it needs light, end of story. If you wrap a revoluta then it will certainly protect it, as Simba has demonstrated, but it will also cause it to look less than perfect, as Kata has proved.

Qhen dealing with palms rather than cycads the essential part of wrapping in my opinion is that it should involve equal amounts of unwrapping. If you are prepared to wrap each evening and unwrap each daytime then you'll be fine. Your palms will get air and light and will not be harmed by wrapping as it is little and often with normality between.

If you haven't got the time or the inclination to wrap and unwrap constantly depending on temperatures then draping certainly seems the better option. I think we can conclude that draping should also encompass any form of shelter building, be it pyramid, wigwam, wooden frame or poly greenhouse. All of these options keep the chill down, especially if a heat source is used, and retain airflow. Fleece allows some sunlight to penetrate if the layers aren't too heavily built up so the need to unwrap is reduced for both light and air needs by the plant.

Using duvets, in my opinion, is a great idea for protecting pots as long as the duvet is thoroughly waterproofed to stop wet rot. The same can be said of straw. I think that polythene bags containing any insulation (straw, duvets, bean bag polystyrene beads, rolled up newspaper etc) used en masse around larger plants in pots will offer good protection against pot freezes but, again, make a rain cover to stop the pots from sweating and rotting.

As far as fleecing the whole garden goes, that's a logistical nightmare in my opinion. You'd need to create peaks and troughs to create aorflow gaps as well as taking into consideration slide angles for the effective dispersal of any snowfall. You couldn't possibly create a strong enough frame to withstand a whole garden's weight of snow so how do you make that an easy task?
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kata
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Re: Wrapping v Drapeing

Post by kata » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:57 am

You'd need to create peaks and troughs


That was also an Idea Goggle. Group the plants in pots in order of size and wrap with several layers of fleece with cane supports for snow. The peaks would be the 6ft Veronicas and Liastris, the troughs the Seedum, Begonias, Dahlias etc. Seedum will survive I do know without cover.

I think I am more or less sorted now.

I like the idea of commercial fleece...Dave's Idea.

I started here:

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Ended up below.

http://www.cropsolutions.co.uk/Pegs.htm

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